Reds 2018

[RedsHappy]

Frankly, right now, if it cameto a choice between Thorn and Cooper I'd pick Cooper.
For all the talk of culture in the real world nothing has changed. Thorn has never given a meaningful reply as to why Cooper isn't playing and I've never thought that was good enough.

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Thorn's stubborn puritanism (if that's what we can call it) re Cooper et al was only ever going to even vaguely work if he delivered powerful Reds results arising from his 'cultural rebuild' promise and, categorically, he has not. And furthermore there is little hard evidence that this avowed Thorn-led 'cultural rebuild' - so lapped up by the media - is delivering anything in terms of improved rugby excellence and consistency within the playing group.

Instead, he looks a fool as an HC who's indulged, and been allowed to indulge, all the wrong personal instincts.

And who can be in any way surprised.

Appointed on highly dubious coaching credentials and as a 'wonderful ex player' (as if that somehow auto-correlated with fine rugby coaching capability which it never has) by a very ordinary CEO in (now departed) Barker - himself totally out of his depth and experience base in such matters - then given by the QRU an utterly inexperienced 'attack' AC and an otherwise utterly failed ex-HC as 'defence' AC.

This 2018 Reds coaching team was a chronicle of a disaster foretold from the very first, as a number of us observed at the time would very likely be the case.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I call Shenanigans. Chris White, QRU board member at the time, was advising Graham on moving to the Reds.

You aren't wrong, think that bit was only referring to McKenzie's role post the move

Bit more form the article

Graham's close friend and manager, Reds board member Chris White, played a key role in the clandestine deal, while former Reds and Wallaby centre Tim Horan is also believed to have had an influence

 

[neilc]

Graham and Styles had more than one year to show their worth at Super level. Simple as that.

You say he should be replaced but by whom? O'Connor? He was the backs coach and he wasn't able to teach MacIntyre to run straight. In the U12s our coaches had us running passing drills running around the corner then back between the cones to ensure our first two steps were forward before we did anything else. I'm just not convinced that the candidate you are looking for is out there and is better than Thorn.

I'm not saying O'Connor should replace him - I thought O'Connor was awful as backs coach, which is why I am surprised how well he seems to be going at Leicester. Different players and conditions maybe? I don't know what it is but it is interesting that coaches can be good some places and poor elsewhere.

Yes Graham and Stiles had more than one season, although I think for Stiles 2016 was the 'co-interim head coaches' thing with O'Connor so essentially he was the forwards coach and then 2017 he was the singular head coach. Stiles certainly should be acknowledged as being an important contributor to the strength of the Reds forwards.

I don't know who should replace Thorn, I certainly don't think it is any coach going around in Australian Super Rugby at the moment. I think that the team and Qld rugby generally would benefit from an experienced coach who can show a track record of working with both young developing players and older heads, and whose CV is based on coaching and not their playing ability, and who can also show man management skills in getting the best out of players not just sending them to Coventry. Dave Rennie (ex Chiefs now in Ireland or Scotland) is someone who comes to mind. Others have mentioned Matt Taylor, who was part of the McKenzie coaching setup and is now with Scotland. I am sure that there are many others, it just depends whether the Reds is seen as an attractive coaching gig now or a poisoned chalice. The key time to get a really good coach was to replace Link and we all know what happened then.

 

[Braveheart81]

The problem for the Reds is potentially that with Thorn contracted and several highly paid players on the books and not playing, they probably don't have the money to hire a new coach with the requisite experience.

From the position they are in, a highly credentialed coach is not going to be cheap and indeed they'd be likely to pay over the odds unless they found an Australian overseas who really wanted to return home.

Working out how to get Hunt, Slipper and Cooper off the books is going to be crucial for the Reds heading into next season.

 

[RedsHappy]

The problem for the Reds is potentially that with Thorn contracted and several highly paid players on the books and not playing, they probably don't have the money to hire a new coach with the requisite experience.

From the position they are in, a highly credentialed coach is not going to be cheap and indeed they'd be likely to pay over the odds unless they found an Australian overseas who really wanted to return home.

Working out how to get Hunt, Slipper and Cooper off the books is going to be crucial for the Reds heading into next season.

You make an excellent overall point BH, the QRU is the master of institutional masochism and self-inflicted wounds. I often conclude that the organisation unconsciously wishes to commit suicide but can't somehow work out the best means of achieving it.

Nonetheless, even if the QRU's admin costs have to be stripped to the bone and beyond, it simply MUST somehow find the $s for a crack Reds coaching group or a sooner or later repeat of 2009's financial circumstances looms as a near certainty.

 

[liquor box]

Working out how to get Hunt, Slipper and Cooper off the books is going to be crucial for the Reds heading into next season.

or let them play

 

[Braveheart81]

or let them play

That seems the least likely outcome.

 

[gel]

I think some of you guys are on crack to think that any halfway decent coach would be interested in a contract with the QRU.

What possible attraction is there in working for the QRU?

Unless there is a massive change in the QRU, the only real way for the reds to become anything successful is to be farmed out to someone else (unrelated to the QRU) to control.

 

[Juan Cote]

Top of my coaching wish-list would be Tony Brown; at least I think he's within a price range we'd be able to afford.

He's been with Jamie Joseph now for 4-5 years and some good must have rubbed off on him? Granted the Sunwolves haven't set the world on fire but they are terribly under-manned and have shown improvement on last season. At least they seem to play a cohesive style and people at least look like they know what they should be doing, even if they are unable to do it.

Whatever happens with the coaching structure/personnel, it is not a stitch on the risk posed by the player recruitment required for next year.

When you consider who is leaving (confirmed) and who is likely to leave (off-field issues), and who won't be picked, it's fair to say that nothing we've seen this season suggest there are players in the current set-up to go close to being ready made replacements.

If anything I consider our recruitment and retention of players to be worse than coaching over the last five years. I'd love to know what's on the recruitment department's white-board right now as to how to deal with this. Most likely their white-board is half full of old games of hang-man and naughts and crosses, the obligatory profanity that can't be removed due to someone inadvertently using permanent marker, and precious little else.

 

[Linebreaker]

Can The Reds sack Cordingly Carozza McGahan and just beg and hire Mckenzie. as Director of Rugby please.

Cordingly has been the biggest thorn in the reds side for years, no pun intended

 

[Gnostic]

Actually given the playing roster I think the Sunwolves are playing at and in some games above their potential and crucially playing good Rugby doing it.

As opposed to what we have been seeing from Australian teams far to often, sides performing way below what they are capable of.

 

[Gnostic]

The problem for the Reds is potentially that with Thorn contracted and several highly paid players on the books and not playing, they probably don't have the money to hire a new coach with the requisite experience.



From the position they are in, a highly credentialed coach is not going to be cheap and indeed they'd be likely to pay over the odds unless they found an Australian overseas who really wanted to return home.



Working out how to get Hunt, Slipper and Cooper off the books is going to be crucial for the Reds heading into next season.

If you have bought a piece of capital equipment that you cannot afford to replace immediately you get the best you can out of it, within reason. Hunt should have been dumped for bringing the team into disrepute and breaching his behavioural undertakings from his last episode regardless of what deals he did with the Lawyers. Slipper is a bit of a different case and should perhaps be treated differently, though perhaps a second positive test should mean sitting out for some time, I don't know immediately and would need to ponder this question somewhat. Cooper for me is a no brainer, is he is uninjured and as fit as the other blokes they should be making use of the funds they are spending until the contract is up, telling him it will not be renewed without demonstration of his world class form consistently and the ability to play to the "new" patterns (which don't look that involved from a backs perspective to me).

To take a page from the Book of Pulver (Tm) to "piss it up the wall" for zero return, and perhaps with regard to community standing negative return is just negligent IMO

 

[Braveheart81]

If you have bought a piece of capital equipment that you cannot afford to replace immediately you get the best you can out of it, within reason. Hunt should have been dumped for bringing the team into disrepute and breaching his behavioural undertakings from his last episode regardless of what deals he did with the Lawyers. Slipper is a bit of a different case and should perhaps be treated differently, though perhaps a second positive test should mean sitting out for some time, I don't know immediately and would need to ponder this question somewhat. Cooper for me is a no brainer, is he is uninjured and as fit as the other blokes they should be making use of the funds they are spending until the contract is up, telling him it will not be renewed without demonstration of his world class form consistently and the ability to play to the "new" patterns (which don't look that involved from a backs perspective to me).

To take a page from the Book of Pulver (Tm) to "piss it up the wall" for zero return, and perhaps with regard to community standing negative return is just negligent IMO

My assumption is they don't think they can terminate Hunt without paying him out otherwise they would have done it.

It looks like they've made decisions on all three and that doesn't involve letting them play. I can't see that changing.

 

[Gnostic]

Most probably right, in that regard they were hung out to dry by RA no doubt with the input of RUPA regarding Hunt.

I just do not fathom the binning of Cooper unless they are playing ducks and drakes about some disciplinary breach they wish to keep, it doesn't matter they are IMO burning money and social capital as well without explaining the position they have taken. People can accept the Hunt and Slipper matters non the basis of the circumstances involved, but the Cooper matter without substantial explanation can only do harm, especially under the performance circumstances of the team and coaches.

 

[fatprop]

On Slipper and Hunt, don't expect them at the Reds while Thorn is about

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/07/03/slipper-still-in-dark-over-future-at-ballymore

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[dru]

A bit of a theme here, or a few of them that I thought I'd just string together:

1. It seems unlikely that Hunt, Slipper, Cooper will play. Because Thorn.
2. Thorn's record is unimpressive.
3. Increasingly Thorn's ability, not just record, is questioned.
4. We could really use a couple of proven backs, I don't know, like say, Cooper and Hunt.

Go back to item 1. Actually at that point it gets cyclic, a red Groundhog day.

> Cut Thorn, return Slipper, Hunt, Cooper - several issues killed in one fell swoop.

ofc we need a coach. Wonder what the QRU are currently doing?

 

[liquor box]

I did not want Thorn to sart with and do not like a lot of his decisions, but I realise that just dumping another coach after one season is not going to help anything as any half decent coach would already need to have been contacted by now if we want a quality coach.

What I would like as a fan would be an end of season press conference that discusses decisions made so far and plans for the future, give me something that makes me renew my membership.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Gees not that long ago Thorn was being lauded as the next best thing and NZ were apparently putting out the feelers..

Not going to weigh in too hard on whether Thorn should be retained or not. Rookie coach so maybe worth another season as at least blooded quite a number of good young players and had some distractions...Cooper (own doing), Hunt and Slipper.

Be good to get Cooper of the books but I seriously doubt Reds season would have been much better with Cooper playing given his form last season and general turnstyle defence.

 

[dru]

I did not want Thorn to sart with and do not like a lot of his decisions, but I realise that just dumping another coach after one season is not going to help anything as any half decent coach would already need to have been contacted by now if we want a quality coach.

What I would like as a fan would be an end of season press conference that discusses decisions made so far and plans for the future, give me something that makes me renew my membership.

That is where I started. I'm not sure that I'm there now.

 

[Gnostic]

Gees not that long ago Thorn was being lauded as the next best thing and NZ were apparently putting out the feelers..



Not going to weigh in too hard on whether Thorn should be retained or not. Rookie coach so maybe worth another season as at least blooded quite a number of good young players and had some distractions.Cooper (own doing), Hunt and Slipper.



Be good to get Cooper of the books but I seriously doubt Reds season would have been much better with Cooper playing given his form last season and general turnstyle defence.

Honestly? How can you say that? Nothing has been said publicly and privately either from the people I have spoken to, or on the extended club rumour mill either.