Reds v Waratahs, round 19 2014

[Pfitzy]

The courier mail is what we loosely call a newspaper. It's not Queensland

Except the bit that Jim Tucker writes - that's more bloody Queensland than a maroon koala drinking Bundy strained through a flag featuring Gunsynd being ridden by Joh Bjelke-Petersen, while humping a pumpkin scone shaped like Wally Lewis' moustache and smoking like Stan Pilecki.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...per-rugby-season/story-fnlhav6e-1226828140773

Fuck - don't injuries make liars out of every rugby fan?

 

[TahDan]

Except the bit that Jim Tucker writes - that's more bloody Queensland than a maroon koala drinking Bundy strained through a flag featuring Gunsynd being ridden by Joh Bjelke-Petersen, while humping a pumpkin scone shaped like Wally Lewis' moustache and smoking like Stan Pilecki.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...per-rugby-season/story-fnlhav6e-1226828140773

Fuck - don't injuries make liars out of every rugby fan?

Hahahaha wow... Tucker couldn't have been more off if he was writing from the moon.

Must have been a nasty shock seeing the full strength Qld side get thumped by the Waratahs in the opening round.

But seriously - Qld second, and neither the Brumbies nor the Waratahs making the top 6? And that was before Pocock and Moore got injured for the Brums.

 

[gel]

Do you not think the situation might have been reversed if they had been the other way around?

I agree, Hunt would have got the ARU top up if he went to the Waratahs and Folau would not have got it if he wanted to go to the reds.

 

[Pfitzy]

But seriously - Qld second, and neither the Brumbies nor the Waratahs making the top 6? And that was before Pocock and Moore got injured for the Brums.

Think he had Tahs as 5th?

 

[Hawko]

Beale certainly didn't mean to do it - buy mark my words there will be players that are willing to put their safety at risk to get a key opposition player carded.

Physics dictated that Beale was always going to end up in that position once he jumped before contact. The only possible way to stop it would be for the tackler to somehow apply a downward force in the tackle. Imagine the vector diagram.

We can't have rules that simply ignore the laws of physics.

Physics only dictated that result because the tackler drove UP in the tackle. The whole point of the tackle is to put the player on the ground. If you drive up then this is counter-productive to the objective and very likely to be dangerous.

You've got to sympathise with the young bloke, his first or second game, he knows he's got to be 100% more physical at this level than he's ever been before. He drives in as hard as he can, over-exerts, gets it slightly wrong and ends up with a yellow card. But he drove up, not down, and if it tips the player above the horizontal then that's illegal. If he tips the player he then must bring him to ground safely or its at least a yellow.

Watch the video again. He drives up in the tackle. After that, everything is inevitable. If he drove down or forward and down he would have been fine.

 

[Ash]

Hahahaha wow. Tucker couldn't have been more off if he was writing from the moon.

Must have been a nasty shock seeing the full strength Qld side get thumped by the Waratahs in the opening round.

But seriously - Qld second, and neither the Brumbies nor the Waratahs making the top 6? And that was before Pocock and Moore got injured for the Brums.

I don't get why you think it's a big deal. Local pundit talks up the team and is completely wrong. Happened in Sydney with a lot of the Sydney press and the Tahs for the last 15 years plus. I guess you're enjoying some shadenfreude, but I'd suggest if you look in your own backyard you will see it's no different. Having lived in Sydney for 13 years now, I can tell you categorically it's no different.

Regarding paper quality, Courier Mail is the Daily Telegraph of Brisbane, i.e. a complete joke.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Ash, you think the Courier is a shit rag, cruise an hour down to the Gold Coast and give the Gold Coast Bulletin a read - if you can understand any of the gibberish. I'm almost certain a number of their headlines are written by 10 year olds.

 

[tranquility]

I don't get why you think it's a big deal. Local pundit talks up the team and is completely wrong. Happened in Sydney with a lot of the Sydney press and the Tahs for the last 15 years plus. I guess you're enjoying some shadenfreude, but I'd suggest if you look in your own backyard you will see it's no different. Having lived in Sydney for 13 years now, I can tell you categorically it's no different.

Regarding paper quality, Courier Mail is the Daily Telegraph of Brisbane, i.e. a complete joke.

All of these tactics of branding people from North of the border as; paranoid, chip on the shoulder, one-eyed, bitter etc are just controlling methods of pack mentality to subvert opinion and push an agenda. It's is one of the major characteristics of pack mentality. Feel free to hose this down as more delirium and tell me that all is fair & square.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't get why you think it's a big deal. Local pundit talks up the team and is completely wrong. Happened in Sydney with a lot of the Sydney press and the Tahs for the last 15 years plus. I guess you're enjoying some shadenfreude, but I'd suggest if you look in your own backyard you will see it's no different. Having lived in Sydney for 13 years now, I can tell you categorically it's no different.

Regarding paper quality, Courier Mail is the Daily Telegraph of Brisbane, i.e. a complete joke.

If only someone had told us that a five year plan was only meant to last five years.

 

[Ash]

Physics only dictated that result because the tackler drove UP in the tackle. The whole point of the tackle is to put the player on the ground. If you drive up then this is counter-productive to the objective and very likely to be dangerous.

I don't have a replay on hand so I can't say whether I agree with him driving up or not, but your physics statement shows a lack of understanding of fundamental concepts. Basically, it is entirely incorrect.

If I am running and I jump, and then my lower half hits a stationary object, then my lower half will stop moving and my upper half will continue moving. This will cause my upper body to flip over the lower half.

You can do a simple experiment for yourself if you don't believe me. Grab a pen. Throw it upright into the side of your hand, so the lower half (about 1/4 up) hits your hand, and watch it flip.

Now, drive your hand up, or down, and it still flips regardless. Once someone jumps into an already low tackle and they get hit around the knees, they are pretty much always going to flip.

I don't have a video for the Greene tackle so can't confirm how low he was, but with this in mind, the responsibility shifts to the ball carrier. If the ball carrier jumps into a tackle, then the tackler can't be held responsible if an otherwide fine tackle turns bad.

 

[fatprop]

Perception is a big part of it. As an example I'll quote two recent cases.
1. Israel Folau. aru has no money, is reducing top ups. Folau is an ex NRL and kangaroo playing AFL poorly. Has never played Rugby. Gets a top up.
2. Karmichael Hunt. aru has no money, is reducing top ups. Folau is an ex NRL and kangaroo playing AFL better the Folau and has rugby at a high level before. ARU clearly states there is no top up available.
Folau is a waratah. Hunt is chased by the Reds.
What the difference between the two? How would you justify one top up and not the other?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

You can't, but I don't think Folau would get the same cash today, and he would be playing in the NRL instead

The ARU since then has shrunk the payments, shrunk the contract list size.

I expect Beale to be a casualty as well and be turning out for the Bulldogs next season

Hunt? I liked him as a Broncos fullback, but the ARU doesn't need him and can't afford him.

I still wonder why JOC (James O'Connor) may be getting a top up and not Hunt actually

 

[Ash]

If only someone had told us that a five year plan was only meant to last five years.

At least you guys had a 5 year plan, the Reds had nothing in the 2000s.

 

[qwerty51]

JOC (James O'Connor) isn't getting a top up

 

[Ash]

All of these tactics of branding people from North of the border as; paranoid, chip on the shoulder, one-eyed, bitter etc are just controlling methods of pack mentality to subvert opinion and push an agenda. It's is one of the major characteristics of pack mentality. Feel free to hose this down as more delirium and tell me that all is fair & square.

To be honest, I find this post is a bit paranoid.

Shock horror, supporters of a team are biased and can't see it from another biased supporter's view point. There's plenty of people from both sides of the border that look across the border down their noses with derision. Two of the major protagonists in this thread (one from Qld, one from NSW) fall into this category.

Meanwhile, the grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I think it's unfair to discuss the direction which a tackler drove. In a game situation this is not a decision that is easily made and instinct in making the tackle kicks in. To say that he drove up intentionally makes an unrealistic expectation of players in a game.

You have to consider that when making a tackle players have to allow for momentum and force of the opposing player, and if the opposition player makes an unexpected adjustment, rather than just trying to make a successful tackle, it can become an illegal tackle.

I don't really mind the yellow card because it was immaterial to the result, but I am more concerned about continued sanctions developing a trend to avoid the tradition around the legs and drive tackle for a rugby league style grapple. Obviously one decision won't lead to this and as the attacker jumped this is a completely different scenario, I'm just saying I'm concerned that too many penalties and cards for tackles like this which do result in a bad outcome but are neither intentional nor recklessly made, but become dangerous through actions of the attacker, may cause coaches to develop lower risk methods of defence.

 

[TahDan]

All of these tactics of branding people from North of the border as; paranoid, chip on the shoulder, one-eyed, bitter etc are just controlling methods of pack mentality to subvert opinion and push an agenda. It's is one of the major characteristics of pack mentality. Feel free to hose this down as more delirium and tell me that all is fair & square.

Wow... That's being a little precious. I was merely providing an example as to why Qlders make awful winners and losers in response to your claim that the Waratahs are "the worst club in the world" (because that is so not the kind of thing a blindly one eyed Qlder with a chip on their shoulder would say).

What do you call the courier mail carrying several pages of justification as to why Qlders are still winners after Origin if it's not "one-eyed chip on the shoulder" stuff?

I mean I know it's the News ltd trash like the Tele, but even by the standards of those dumbed down Tony lovers it was pretty telling...

To be fair though, the Telegraph still holds the award for most blatant political propaganda outside of North Korea for their 'Australia Needs Tony' headline before the election. That is some of the most vomit inducing trash I've ever seen and I honestly don't think it could have been more redolent of Kim Jong Un media release without claiming Tony was also in fact God.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't have a replay on hand so I can't say whether I agree with him driving up or not, but your physics statement shows a lack of understanding of fundamental concepts. Basically, it is entirely incorrect.

If I am running and I jump, and then my lower half hits a stationary object, then my lower half will stop moving and my upper half will continue moving. This will cause my upper body to flip over the lower half.

You can do a simple experiment for yourself if you don't believe me. Grab a pen. Throw it upright into the side of your hand, so the lower half (about 1/4 up) hits your hand, and watch it flip.

Now, drive your hand up, or down, and it still flips regardless. Once someone jumps into an already low tackle and they get hit around the knees, they are pretty much always going to flip.

I don't have a video for the Greene tackle so can't confirm how low he was, but with this in mind, the responsibility shifts to the ball carrier. If the ball carrier jumps into a tackle, then the tackler can't be held responsible if an otherwide fine tackle turns bad.

I agree with you up until the last paragraph.

There has been a very clear decision made with lifting tackles that the ultimate responsibility lies with the tackler.

The fact that Beale was slightly off the ground when he was tackled mitigated things slightly for Greene but that only meant that he received a yellow card for the tackle rather than a red.

Players, coaches and fans need to move on from questioning which player caused a player to be tipped above the horizontal in a lifting tackle. A clear decision has been made that the tackler will be held responsible so from that perspective they have to ensure that their tackling technique doesn't cause it to happen.

 

[Ash]

Wow. That's being a little precious. I was merely providing an example as to why Qlders make awful winners and losers in response to your claim that the Waratahs are "the worst club in the world" (because that is so not the kind of thing a blindly one eyed Qlder with a chip on their shoulder would say).

Isn't that a bit of a broad brush?

You could generalise that to anyone you wish by finding some whining element, paricularly in News Ltd papers. Have a look at the trash the Daily Smellygraph posted about Origin in the last 9 years, including this one.

Have a look at the amount of Reds supporters on here wishing the Tahs good luck in the finals and congratulating them on their season so far. Then find a vocal minority whining.

Then have a look at a Tahs supporter on here still claiming that the Reds were undeserved victors in 2011 and their season was entirely lucky based on a refereeing call. Then find the majority who congratulated the Reds on their 2011 victory and moved on.

I would say that you are painting yourself fast into the "awful winner" category by what you have posted on this thread, just like a few Reds fans have put themselves in the "awful loser" category.

edit: To add, what you have posted indicates you are no better, yet you take the high ground. Perhaps you should think about that for a while, just like those Reds fans need to step back, take a deep breath, and realise it's not the end of the world and the world is made up of shades of grey, not the black and white they are preaching.

 

[TahDan]

I would say that you are painting yourself fast into the "awful winner" category by what you have posted on this thread, just like a few Reds fans have put themselves in the "awful loser" category.

edit: To add, what you have posted indicates you are no better, yet you take the high ground. Perhaps you should think about that for a while, just like those Reds fans need to step back, take a deep breath, and realise it's not the end of the world and the world is made up of shades of grey, not the black and white they are preaching.

Absolutely, the Tele is an awful paper that has crapped on like nothing else for... Well ever really.

My comment was, and remains a generalisation in response to a generalisation. I simply cited an example - admittedly from the lowest common denominator of society in News ltd, but an example all the same - to back it up.

I don't really consider that in itself taking the high ground here either, I never said we're perfect in Sydney, I just wanted to point out to tranquility that he doesn't have a very high perch to be judging us from either. But all the same that piece by the Courier Mail really was a classic - they basically just provided the perfect reference point for anyone who claims Qlders have a chip on their shoulder. It was comical in its stupidity and irony. I mean fuck, you've just lost your first series after having won 8 straight! It just came across as being so insecure.

For the record though, I was cheering the Reds on till the final siren in the 2011 Final - was a vindication for positive running rugby fans everywhere seeing them win and also for those of us in Sydney who said the NSWRU were morons for letting link go.

 

[Hawko]

I don't have a replay on hand so I can't say whether I agree with him driving up or not, but your physics statement shows a lack of understanding of fundamental concepts. Basically, it is entirely incorrect.

If I am running and I jump, and then my lower half hits a stationary object, then my lower half will stop moving and my upper half will continue moving. This will cause my upper body to flip over the lower half.

You can do a simple experiment for yourself if you don't believe me. Grab a pen. Throw it upright into the side of your hand, so the lower half (about 1/4 up) hits your hand, and watch it flip.

Now, drive your hand up, or down, and it still flips regardless. Once someone jumps into an already low tackle and they get hit around the knees, they are pretty much always going to flip.

I don't have a video for the Greene tackle so can't confirm how low he was, but with this in mind, the responsibility shifts to the ball carrier. If the ball carrier jumps into a tackle, then the tackler can't be held responsible if an otherwide fine tackle turns bad.

The physics is a bit more complex. Consider a front on tackle where the runner is going flat out and the tackler from directly in front hits the runner between the knees and the waist; that is below the centre of gravity. This does not result in tip tackles in all but a few cases and yet is quite common in any game. Because there is only minimum or no contact with the ground when running at top speed, this is analogous to your pencil experiment.

Why? Several factors are at play:

• Often a tackler will twist his body so that although the player flips to about 90 degrees he comes to ground quickly on his side or shoulder.
• If the tackler uses his arms to hold the player and goes to ground this will drag the lower half of the body to ground.
• Even if the running player jumps to try and avoid the tackle, a common event when the tackler aims for the ankles, a tip tackle almost never eventuates.
• A running player has to jump quite high to ensure he finishes up beyond the horizontal, and even then the tackler can take action that ensures the player is not tipped (basically to wrap the arms around the player and drive or pull down). As the Law puts the onus on the tackler to do this, a player jumping up is not per se dangerous, though it may be depending on the situation. That is a judgement call for the referee and/or TMO.

In this case the "jumping" was merely trying to get the ball away to another player and was not that high (as the referee and TMO rightly adjudged). What caused the player, Beale, to cartwheel was that Greene drove him up while grasping him.

I'm not that critical of Greene, a young player trying to put a dominant hit on a key opponent, but being a halfback and not very big his direction of drive got messed up and instead of dragging him down to the turf, he forced him up and cartwheeled him. It was very dangerous and Greene was correctly carded.

Two things a tackler can do to never be responsible for a tip tackle:

1. Always tackle using the arms.
2. Drive forward and down, so the legs hit the ground first