Rugby Championship Backrow

[Ignoto]

This is a view that really annoys me sometimes. "He has never shone, therefore he never will". The argument gets trotted out in relation to a lot of players (Rob Horne is another that springs to mind). It's as if they can never improve their game.

It wouldn't be an issue if Benny Mac hadn't performed in one or two occassions while playing for gold. But over different opportunities over several years he still hasn't produced the goods. This isn't a young, upcoming player who's been thrown in the deep end. This is a guy who's played several years as a professional, had solid form in Super Rugby but never translates it into a Wallaby Performance.

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again with the same results. McCallam's super form hasn't really changed in 3 years, it's been solid. So what makes you think he's time in yellow will be any different? In any event, I haven't seen anything in his super form that suggests he's the dynamic forward we want. He's not as athletic as Higgers, he's not as devastating running the ball as Palu, he's work ethic of getting to rucks is better than both of those, but his effectiveness is worse.

The Kepus, Moore's, Horwills, Mowens when running the ball offer the opportunity to draw in two defensive players to make a tackle, while the Higgers and Palu's break the first up tackle and get you over the game line. If you want your Toomu's or Cooper's to put their backs into holes you're going to need guys who actually get front foot ball.

 

[RoffsChoice]

Sorry, Greg Holmes, Sam Wykes, Jordan Smiler and Heath Tessmann.

 

[emuarse]

Thanks for warming up the mic for me slim - you're a smart bloke.



.........And fuck MMM - Link can't be serious about picking fully fit players when he's made of cheap glass


-----------------------
I hate autocorrect .

\I'm MMMM, MMM's big brother. And I'm coming down the stratosphere to sort you out for maligning my bro, little Hughie

 

[barbarian]

It wouldn't be an issue if Benny Mac hadn't performed in one or two occassions while playing for gold. But over different opportunities over several years he still hasn't produced the goods. This isn't a young, upcoming player who's been thrown in the deep end. This is a guy who's played several years as a professional, had solid form in Super Rugby but never translates it into a Wallaby Performance.

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again with the same results. McCallam's super form hasn't really changed in 3 years, it's been solid. So what makes you think he's time in yellow will be any different? In any event, I haven't seen anything in his super form that suggests he's the dynamic forward we want. He's not as athletic as Higgers, he's not as devastating running the ball as Palu, he's work ethic of getting to rucks is better than both of those, but his effectiveness is worse.

The Kepus, Moore's, Horwills, Mowens when running the ball offer the opportunity to draw in two defensive players to make a tackle, while the Higgers and Palu's break the first up tackle and get you over the game line. If you want your Toomu's or Cooper's to put their backs into holes you're going to need guys who actually get front foot ball.

I disagree. I think his Super form has been great in the last couple of months, the best I have seen from him in a long time. Plus I thought he made a good contribution off the bench against the Lions in the third test.

He was never bad for the Wallabies, just ineffectual. Same as Dennis and Higgers have been. Same as Ant Fainga'a, Rob Simmons. This doesn't mean they should be cast off forevermore. My point about Peter Kimlin is that it is possible to make big improvements late in your career.

Ben Mc's ball-running stats are just as good as Kimlin's, or any other candidate for that matter.

I don't think he is necessarily the standout candidate, but I think he should probably be in the 22 somewhere.
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[thierry dusautoir]

I disagree. I think his Super form has been great in the last couple of months, the best I have seen from him in a long time. Plus I thought he made a good contribution off the bench against the Lions in the third test.

He was never bad for the Wallabies, just ineffectual. Same as Dennis and Higgers have been. Same as Ant Fainga'a, Rob Simmons. This doesn't mean they should be cast off forevermore. My point about Peter Kimlin is that it is possible to make big improvements late in your career.

Ben Mc's ball-running stats are just as good as Kimlin's, or any other candidate for that matter.

I don't think he is necessarily the standout candidate, but I think he should probably be in the 22 somewhere.
.

I think he should be in the squad and get a run during the games vs the Pumas. Then he can prove his worth once more, and as much as some people may not like this, i would dare say this is what will happen.

Back five for Pumas games.

4. MMM
5. Pyle
6. Fardy
7.Hooper
8. McCalman

Lets get a bit crazy

 

[Tip]

This is a view that really annoys me sometimes. "He has never shone, therefore he never will". The argument gets trotted out in relation to a lot of players (Rob Horne is another that springs to mind).

You're right barbarian.
Horne has never shone, and never will in the Wallaby Jersey.

Anthony Fainga'a, Harris, Goodwin, Lili all ahead of him in terms of first picked 12. Fainga'a, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Kurindrani, Cummins & Feauai-Sautia all ahead of him as first picked 13.

Depth-wise, this is actually a real positive for the Wallabies, unfortunately not the same can be said for Horne.

 

[Braveheart81]

You're right barbarian.
Horne has never shone, and never will in the Wallaby Jersey.

Anthony Fainga'a, Harris, Goodwin, Lili all ahead of him in terms of first picked 12. Fainga'a, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Kurindrani, Cummins & Feauai-Sautia all ahead of him as first picked 13.

Depth-wise, this is actually a real positive for the Wallabies, unfortunately not the same can be said for Horne.

How many non Reds games would you say you watched this year or are you just a troll?

 

[Tip]

I wasn't actually being a troll. Ewen McKenzie doesn't rate Horne as one of the top 3 Inside OR outside centres in the country. Fact.
12: Leali-ifano, Anthony Fainga'a, Mike Harris,
13: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Kurindrani, Sautia (Anthony Fainga'a)

McCabe & Goodwin "were considered, however missed out due to injury" Which means that now Horne is 9th in line to a Wallaby centre gig.

By all means, call me a troll. But please look at the facts. There are currently 6 - 8 people in front of Rob Horne, and I don't think he has anything more to offer the Wallabies than McCabe, Goodwin, Fainga'a, Harris or Leali'ifano as an inside centre.

I wouldn't put him in the Wallabies 13 jersey either, as he has been playing 12 for the Tah's all year. Besides AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Kurindrani are light years in front of Horne as a player, creator and distributor.

As I've said before, Ewen picked Fainga'a instead of Horne, two very like for like players, and it's pointless having both in the squad. Fainga'a tackles lower (leading to more pilfers), whilst is also excellent at the breakdown.

Horne has had his chance in the Wallabies jersey, and after this super xv season, it's safe to say he isn't one of the top 2 inside or outside centres in the country. (Goodwin, Leali-ifano - better 12's this season) (AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Kurindrani - Better 13's this season)

 

[Tip]

And considering how off topic the above post is, I think I'll throw in my two cents worth on the back row front.

This thread should really be called "Rugby Championship Backrow... plus a second row" Because we all know that Horwill has his jersey locked down.

5. Simmons
6. Kimlin
7. Gill
8. Mowen

19. Douglas
20. Hooper
Reasoning: we can't reward below average performances. Douglas gets dropped to bench. His bigger frame makes him a possible impact player (assuming he catches the ball)

Next year, with the Cock and Botham Back. (& everyone fit)

5. MMM
6. Mowen
7. Gill
8. Pocock

19. Fotu Aleaua (reserve second row / 6 / 8) or Kimlin (if he stays)
20. Higgers

Switch Mowen & Pocock, depending on who is better at the back of the scrum.

 

[Braveheart81]

Tip - now that was a much more well-reasoned response than the cheap snipe you had in your previous post.

 

[barbarian]

I wasn't actually being a troll. Ewen McKenzie doesn't rate Horne as one of the top 3 Inside OR outside centres in the country. Fact.
12: Leali-ifano, Anthony Fainga'a, Mike Harris,
13: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Kurindrani, Sautia (Anthony Fainga'a)

McCabe & Goodwin "were considered, however missed out due to injury" Which means that now Horne is 9th in line to a Wallaby centre gig.

By all means, call me a troll. But please look at the facts. There are currently 6 - 8 people in front of Rob Horne, and I don't think he has anything more to offer the Wallabies than McCabe, Goodwin, Fainga'a, Harris or Leali'ifano as an inside centre.

I wouldn't put him in the Wallabies 13 jersey either, as he has been playing 12 for the Tah's all year. Besides AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Kurindrani are light years in front of Horne as a player, creator and distributor.

As I've said before, Ewen picked Fainga'a instead of Horne, two very like for like players, and it's pointless having both in the squad. Fainga'a tackles lower (leading to more pilfers), whilst is also excellent at the breakdown.

Horne has had his chance in the Wallabies jersey, and after this super xv season, it's safe to say he isn't one of the top 2 inside or outside centres in the country. (Goodwin, Leali-ifano - better 12's this season) (AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Kurindrani - Better 13's this season)

Two major flaws in this post. Firstly you use the phrase 'look at the facts', and yet you cite none. Rob Horne's statistics are far better than Ant's this season.

Secondly you say 'Horne has had his chance in the Wallaby jersey', and supposedly hasn't taken it. However I think exactly the same can be said for Ant Fainga'a, who has played 8 more tests than Rob and has had very limited impact.
.

 

[Richo]

However I think exactly the same can be said for Ant Fainga'a, who has played 8 more tests than Rob and has had very limited impact.
.

Quite aside from the Horne debate, this fact just stuns me. I honestly can't remember Fainga'a doing anything of particular note in his 23 caps.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Quite aside from the Horne debate, this fact just stuns me. I honestly can't remember Fainga'a doing anything of particular note in his 23 caps.

1 big tackle where he rushed out of defence and force the turn over. thats all i can remember.

 

[cyclopath]

Backrow, fellas, backrow.
Just sayin'.

 

[barbarian]

I wonder how many of those caps came off the bench.

Like Horne Ant has never let the side down, but never really shone. That doesn't mean he shouldn't get another chance, though I don't think his 2013 form is quite good enough to warrant one.
.

 

[cyclopath]

Oi!!!

 

[barbarian]

Hey I wrote that before you posted. It was so good that I didn't want to delete it.

 

[Gnostic]

I'm not sold on MMM as much as others are. His missed tackle stats are shocking, and I just don't think he has had enough game time this season.

I would like to see:

4. Fardy
5. Horwill
6. McCalman
7. Gill
8. Mowen

with Kimlin on the bench.
.

I agree fully regarding MMM. It is surprising regarding his tackle stats as general opinion and perception is the opposite.

Regarding McCalman, I would say he has had a good Super Season and performed against the Lions in a outclassed team. I would however have to be labelled one of those who say he has had his chances at test level. Much as Chisholm and Brown before him he has a good performance at Super level and on that form would have to be in selection frame. The downside for me is that while I see work rate, I just don't see any hard results for that work rate. I always likened Brown to the blowfly against the window pane, nobody could question the effort, but the net effect was negligible. I would have him on the bench at best.

For me:-

the whole pack has to be picked together but, just on the back 5 I would go:-
4)Horwill
5)Pyle
6)Fardy
7)Gill
8)Mowen

Bench:-
McCalman
Douglas
Hooper

If everyone is fit (EOYT/2014)
4)Horwill
5)Pyle
6)Higginbotham
7)Gill
8)Mowen

Bench:-
L. Jones
Douglas/Carter/Simmons/Wykes/Skelton (whoever is in form)
Hooper

I would also suggest that if playing a side with a lineout which is not dominant we could do without a jumper at 6 if Mowen is playing at 8. In which case a 6 like Jarrod Saffy could come into the equation. Abrasive, defensive machine with running ability could come in handy. We could see a situation where selection is horses for courses and to suit a game plan. What a great ability to have and also what a great way to throw doubt into an opposition.

I would also say that if his form doesn't improve Horwill will come under pressure not only as Captain but to hold his starting spot, and I don't think Genia is the ready made back-up.

 

[Athilnaur]

Or you could merge the thread with the Squad thread to save mod blood pressure Cyclo

 

[Richo]

Backrow, fellas, backrow.
Just sayin'.

Sorry, I thought this was another backs row.