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Rugby Championship Backrow

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Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Fotu has to be the best impact player coming off any bench for an Aus side this year. If we can carry his ability to only play in 8 or 6 on the bench then he could come on and be a real game changer late in the second half.


Can't agree. Fotu was massive against the Sharks this year and was really strong last year, but most of his games this year have been disappointing. He has the size, looks and running ability to be a great impact player, but to my mind hasn't delivered this year.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Two major flaws in this post. Firstly you use the phrase 'look at the facts', and yet you cite none. Rob Horne's statistics are far better than Ant's this season.

Secondly you say 'Horne has had his chance in the Wallaby jersey', and supposedly hasn't taken it. However I think exactly the same can be said for Ant Fainga'a, who has played 8 more tests than Rob and has had very limited impact.
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I would point out as well that nearly all of Hornes tests have been played at 13. He is as we have seen at the Tahs a specialist 12. I might add despite the differences in physique Horne plays a very Horan like game at 12. How did Horan go when run at 13?
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
I honestly thought that there was there no discernible difference between Benny Mac and Cottrell when the force swapped them around half way through the year. I thought Cottrell was slightly more impressive in some areas.


And by no means was he the best backrower at the force this year. I thought Alcock and Brown had much bigger impacts.


Cottrell is another standout for the future. Benny McC has had the best he is likely to get imo.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Cottrell is another standout for the future. Benny McC has had the best he is likely to get imo.

You could have said the same thing about Kimlin last year. He was nowhere near Wallaby selection then and now most people would have him in their matchday 23.

McCalman is still only 25. I'm not saying that he's going to get better than he currently is, but other players have shown that it is definitely possible.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
You could have said the same thing about Kimlin last year. He was nowhere near Wallaby selection then and now most people would have him in their matchday 23.

McCalman is still only 25. I'm not saying that he's going to get better than he currently is, but other players have shown that it is definitely possible.


Kimlin has been carrying injuries for a long time. IMO this year is the first he has been injury free since he first represented in the Wallabies. I don't know if Ben McC has the same 'excuse'.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Kimlin has been carrying injuries for a long time. IMO this year is the first he has been injury free since he first represented in the Wallabies. I don't know if Ben McC has the same 'excuse'.

Does it really change anything though?

Hugh McMeniman could have played 80 tests by now if he wasn't always injured.

Some players will always be more prone to injuries than others. It is something they need to overcome to reach their potential.

McCalman spent most of 2012 out injured. Maybe he would be ahead of Kimlin and McMeniman now if he'd got through all that period injury free and could keep improving?
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Does it really change anything though?

Hugh McMeniman could have played 80 tests by now if he wasn't always injured.

Some players will always be more prone to injuries than others. It is something they need to overcome to reach their potential.

McCalman spent most of 2012 out injured. Maybe he would be ahead of Kimlin and McMeniman now if he'd got through all that period injury free and could keep improving?


Yeah, but my point is that Kimlin is playing better than Ben McC now and Kimlin's lift in form isn't a justification for saying Ben McC will be better next time around.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Juxtaposition is a funny thing:

5. Simmons

Reasoning: we can't reward below average performances.


o_O

Seriously, tell me what Rob Simmons has ever done in a Wallabies jersey worthy of note.

"He's the lineout general!" scream the Quadeslanders. Well, we've got Mowen for that. And if he goes down, we can pick someone else.

But not Simmons. He had his turn, and has been found wanting. He was a Robbie favourite and we've seen how far that gets a bloke*.

Not when guys like Pyle, Neville, and Jones are playing the house down for the Rebels. Not when Douglas actually does the grunt work while Simmons just watches the rucks and tries to be a hard man (I didn't think you could square the value of "fail", but he does it in that case).

He's a big bloke, but he plays like he's 10kg lighter and 10cm shorter. Have him in red all you want, but not gold.



*except when that bloke happens to enjoy the love of a Reds fan... how quickly they forget the "favourite" call when it doesn't suit them...
 
T

Tip

Guest
Douglas is inaccurate at the breakdown. He doesn't use his size to his advantage. I believe it's technical deficiencies.
You know what G&GR player ratings were of Kane Douglas and his 3 tests against the Lions: 6, 4, 4.
I thought that these ratings were on the kind side as well.

I'd rather start MMM, but Ewen has stated he prefers fit players. I doubt he'll put Fardy or Pyle on debut for the first All Blacks test, surely they would be introduced via the bench.

Which leaves Simmons. Who isn't 10cm shorter as you say Pfitzy, who hasn't set the world on fire in the Wallabies yet, but also hasn't been making 3 handling errors a game.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Which leaves Simmons. Who isn't 10cm shorter as you say Pfitzy, who hasn't set the world on fire in the Wallabies yet, but also hasn't been making 3 handling errors a game.

I love this. Apparently Rob Horne 'has never shone, and never will in the Wallaby Jersey', and 'has had his chance', but Simmons 'hasn't set the world on fire YET, and at least he isn't making a ton of errors'.
.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
I love this. Apparently Rob Horne 'has never shone, and never will in the Wallaby Jersey', and 'has had his chance', but Simmons 'hasn't set the world on fire YET, and at least he isn't making a ton of errors'.
.


Ok fair call baabaa. SO does that mean Simmons deserves his spot, as does horne? or Should neither be there? This is becoming a bit of a Quade Cooper fiasco. So in your words, we should all get over it because he's not there and chances are he won't be!!

Tip move on and get back on topic. Egging on the New South Welshmen gets old mate. Simmons has had his shot and hasn't stepped up so I'm all for a new face. Using him as a last resort ignores the form of other players that deserve a shot.

My Backrow:

6: MMM
8: Mowen
7: Gilly
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
The second lock position is a real problem. In my view, Douglas and Simmons have both been serviceable on average without ever making the jersey theirs. Fortunately, it's not a travesty if either is selected while we wait for Pyle to heal before we see if he's ready for test match rugby.

We're very lucky to have an excellent line out caller who is also a first-choice back rower.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Ok fair call baabaa. SO does that mean Simmons deserves his spot, as does horne? or Should neither be there? This is becoming a bit of a Quade Cooper fiasco. So in your words, we should all get over it because he's not there and chances are he won't be!!

My view is simple- I don't think players should be written off entirely just because they have underperformed in the past.

If Simmons, McCalman, Horne or whoever are in good form and are the best man for the job then they should get it regardless of what happened last year, the year before that or the year before that.

All three players have had pretty good years and deserve to be in the squad, if not the 22.
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RoffsChoice

Jim Lenehan (48)
Benefit of Simmons is he and Horwill understand each other's play, so will have a good co-ordinated scrum.
Similar situation with Horne, he and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) hold a midfield and can control a back three very well.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Benefit of Simmons is he and Horwill understand each other's play, so will have a good co-ordinated scrum.

As a prop I taught a league winger how to push and lock properly in ten minutes.

If that's what you're grasping at, please pick up your hair gel, crocs, and your copy of Men's Health, and go wait with the other backs while we talk about rugby.



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RoffsChoice

Jim Lenehan (48)
Easy enough for one lock to push properly, but a good partnership goes beyond one lock pushing well. Why do you think Botha and Matfield were so much better when together?
 

lily

Vay Wilson (31)
I wouldn't have Palu or Hooper let alone Smith anywhere near a Wallaby backrow. Just let Ewen play his equiv of Warrenball.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
The real issue in the back row is 8. The answer to Cliffy being busted is to move Mowen to 8 because he controls the ball at the back of the scrum so well, but that won't be important in the RC as we are never likely to get a shove on in the scrum to make it worth worrying about. But he really is the only option.

With Mowen at 8 we need an impact player at 6 and Kimlin proved he could be that in the Lions game. That leaves 7, Gill is more physical than Hooper in my opinion so with that 6/8 combo it needs to be him.

The interesting thing to me that I have observed over the last few months is that Force fans are least likely to be advocating for McCalman in the Wallabies. I think that comes with watching him play more and realising he really just doesn't have enough impact.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Easy enough for one lock to push properly, but a good partnership goes beyond one lock pushing well. Why do you think Botha and Matfield were so much better when together?

Well, because they were awesome.

In the third Lions test, or scrum improved mightily when Kepu came on. Then Douglas went off for Simmons and suddenly the pressure came right back on. It isn't coincidence.

When you are talking eg backline pairing, with Horne and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or the Quade/Genia axis knowing each other a whole season (or more), then there are benefits. In the back row too this can be important.

But at scrum and lineout time the best practitioners come together, hammer out a balance at training, and make it work. Combinations are important, but only within the context of your role, so at scrum time:

Locks are the engine - they provide the majority of the power.
Props direct it and add their own push, playing the tricks at the same time.
And in the very near future, hookers will actually strike for the ball again instead of being a third prop.

Every tight five forward in this country should be getting the same basic instruction on binding, leg position, and power. There are no subtleties to the second row and nowhere to hide when your scrum is getting mullered. You're either bound tight and pushing, or you're not doing your job.

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Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
Kimlin has been in excellent form and deserves a shot at 6 or at least should be on the bench.
If we go into the first Bled with Simmons and McCalman starting we will be monstered up front and at the breakdown.
We need to do something different in order to gain a different result and no doubt Link recognises this.
I think we will see Horwill with a new partner and Kimlin in the back row to start.
Fotu has not been effective at all of late and will probably not be in the final 30.
Higgers had his best season to date playing at 8. He has become stronger and more physical to add to his running and ball playing abilities.
He is our answer long term at 8 with Mowen at 6.
 
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