Rugby League really gives me the shits

[Rassie]

Rassie, I have seen Aboriginal league, cricket and AFL teams, I don't think there ever been controversy over that. I like the way these days all maori players are named with their Iwi to show where the connection is, would love to see same in Aus,if there enough indigenous players around, remembering of course as in NZ now it professional it is a struggle to fit games in.

I love the Maori team. Just in todays world politicians and others do not know better and have other agenda's. And considering they were created to rival Rugby league and Union is proffesional now as well as the All Blacks being so diverse are they actually still needed?

 

[Bullrush]

It's a heritage thing anyway, there's absolutely nothing politically incorrect about it. Especially when you look at the composition of the NZ Maori side nowadays it's about a shared culture and heritage, not about skin color.

And like Sluggy mentioned it doesn't make sense for the ABs to play nations like Fiji or Tonga outside of the RWC. They would be losing out on revenue and a competitive test.

World rugby as a whole - but NZ in particular - I think owe a great deal to the pacific island nations and if they are ever really serious about making rugby a truly global game, Tests with the island nations are a must.

It's a shame that the PI team that was running a few years back got side-lined. It's something that should be looked at again for the future I reckon - a PI Lions tour so to speak. The ruling that playing for this PI team discounted you from playing for another country killed it.

 

[USARugger]

It would require the PI to be able to draw enough fans either through nationalism or assurance of a thrilling display of rugby to make the tests commercially appealing to teams like the ABs as well as competitive.

Samoa has been on a meteoric rise and should be doing this within a few years. They have been knocking on the door for a bit.

 

[Rassie]

World rugby as a whole - but NZ in particular - I think owe a great deal to the pacific island nations and if they are ever really serious about making rugby a truly global game, Tests with the island nations are a must.

It's a shame that the PI team that was running a few years back got side-lined. It's something that should be looked at again for the future I reckon - a PI Lions tour so to speak. The ruling that playing for this PI team discounted you from playing for another country killed it.

It stopped Cherry Picking at the highest level but it is being done now at lower levels and in Rugby league. But Maori and Pacifics people are not the same. Classing them as the same one are already ignoring their culture by combining them under one term. I do not think the PI team would fall under the same rule as it would have killed the British and Irish Lions as well.

People really wanted a PI team for show and to make huge amounts of cash of and throw bread crumbs to those unions like it have been done all the years. The PI should have been created like a British and Irish Lions team and should have toured every 4 years. Same with South American Jaquars. It should not be used to make money of exhibitions. The Pacific Islands unions knew this.

 

[boyo]

Paul Tito played for NZ Maori: some may say "How bizarre?".

 

[wamberal]

Paul Tito played for NZ Maori: some may say "How bizarre?".

Only if you were a racist bigot.

 

[Phil]

I am pretty sure, not positive, that the original set of loig rules, precluded lineouts. Although interestingly enough, there was some consideration of introducing lineouts in the sixties.

I have to disagree with you, obviously a convert like Dally M was enormously important, but IMHO significant numbers of Australians prefer running rugby, which rugby unfortunately has not been all that good at. (Are you aware, for example, that the international rules for rugby allowed kicking out on the full from anywhere on the field, up until the sixties - we were allowed to play our domestic competitions under the "Australian dispensation" - which resembles the current rule allowing kicking out on the full from the 22?) No doubt there were sporting entrepreneurs in those days who saw that a game based on running the ball would be more popular than our game. And they were right, of course.

Australians preferred league over rugby to such an extent that rugby was on the verge of dying out - or being reduced to a local curiosity - until some bright spark had the idea of inviting the Fijian national team to tour here during the fifties. They were an absolutely sensational success (mostly because the RAN WITH THE BLOODY BALL) and the influx of pounds and shillings and pence into our national coffers saved the game.


Another interesting sidelight on the issue of scrums is that once upon a time rugby hookers were poached to play loig. Ken Kearney is the most outstanding example, a Wallaby hooker who played hooker, and captained, a championship winning St George side. And coached them too, IIRC.

Of course loig was helped enormously by the amateur rule in rugby. A rugby player who played one minute of loig, whether or not he was paid for it, was deemed to be a professional, and banned for life from playing rugby. That was a really good idea, chaps.

My own club, Eastwood, would not even allow Michael Cleary, who was the local member of State Parliament to join the bloody club, even though he was a Wallaby.

Wamberal,you bring back some good memories of how league used to be played.I always remember talking to a friend who played hooker and he said the reason you went into a scrum with "a loose arm" was not to help win the ball but protection from being belted.Also about the play the ball being a contest,with some players,like Benny Elias,experts at winning the ball back.
Due to the payment issue,there were many good union players who converted to league.You mentioned Kearney,there was Rex Mossop before him,the Thornett brothers Dick and Ken,John Brass,Phil Hawthorn,Phil Smith,Ken Wright,Russell Fairfax and Ray Price.Probably missed a few,but they were pretty high class recruits.
I certainly think rugby attitudes like you mentioned with Eastwood and Mike Cleary stoked the fires for feuding between the codes.I still enjoy both games but do believe league has lost some of its appeal now.

 

[terry j]

thought there might have been a few more Phil, so just had a brainwave and typed in 'union players to league' in google, as always a list on wikipedia! Is there anything they don't cover? (whether or not it is accurate is another question)

anyway, to my surprise John Kirwan is listed. Must have been after I stopped watching league..or just as likely not into union yet so the name meant nothing.

How did he go anyone? Was that back far enough that it was money, ie union still unpaid then?

anyway, here is the link if anyone is interested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...l_code_to_another#Rugby_union_to_rugby_league

edit prob not very accurate I'd say

 

[Dan54]

Paul Tito played for NZ Maori: some may say "How bizarre?".

Why?? Tito has quite a lot of Maori blood in him, not sure why anyone thinks everyone with Maori in them should look any particular way, I've got a couple of nephews and nieces with maori dads, they have blond hair.
Rassie, I see where you are coming from with asking are Maori All Blacks necessary, I say no, but hope they are kept going as they hold an important place in NZ rugby. As for them being started to combat League, not sure that is right, Maori ABs have been around for years, most people in NZ didn't know league existed until late sixties, and the it was mainly on the West Coast of South Island where the Coal Mines were.
Just checked in one of my books and as I suspected Maori toured in 1926-27, so were definitely not started to combat league, actually I believe the first team to tour Aus was NZ natives!!

 

[Rassie]

Why?? Tito has quite a lot of Maori blood in him, not sure why anyone thinks everyone with Maori in them should look any particular way, I've got a couple of nephews and nieces with maori dads, they have blond hair.
Rassie, I see where you are coming from with asking are Maori All Blacks necessary, I say no, but hope they are kept going as they hold an important place in NZ rugby. As for them being started to combat League, not sure that is right, Maori ABs have been around for years, most people in NZ didn't know league existed until late sixties, and the it was mainly on the West Coast of South Island where the Coal Mines were.
Just checked in one of my books and as I suspected Maori toured in 1926-27, so were definitely not started to combat league, actually I believe the first team to tour Aus was NZ natives!!

The creation of the Maori team was at the same time Rugby league was expanding and agreement between English and Aussie Rugby league to make their scopes bigger and that was after the Maori Rugby team were created.

Today its serves as NZ 2ND team and its job is more to keep players from playing other countries. I would think Pacific People playing in a Maori team you marginalize them as it would be the same as throwing a Zulu and a Tswana in team and classing them as the same with same heritage. If anyone really cared about the development of players from Samoa, Tonga and Fiji they would have never exclude them from the Super 12 cutting of their access to money and meant they had to go to NZ to earn money for rugby.
As for the record books I think you must rewind them a bit. Look for a team called the All Golds. Start from there

 

[Dan54]

Why look for a team called All Golds, I only talking about Maori Rugby, and saying it was around before League was, so can't see how it was started to combat league, what you say up there maybe it's the opposite?. And the best NZ Maori team many say was the one in the 20s. As I said the first team to tour Australia in 1888 (or thereabouts) was NZ Natives. And no it doesn't serve as a NZ 2nds team today,and never has, they call that the NZ Juniors. PI aren't actually eligible for Maoris, they may have played the odd one years back, in the days they were picked more for colour of skin than lineage,but fortunately the world has moved on from those days.
I think people do care about development of Island rugby, just most Rugby Unions tend to need their money to keep their own game going.

 

[Phil]

thought there might have been a few more Phil, so just had a brainwave and typed in 'union players to league' in google, as always a list on wikipedia! Is there anything they don't cover? (whether or not it is accurate is another question)

anyway, to my surprise John Kirwan is listed. Must have been after I stopped watching league..or just as likely not into union yet so the name meant nothing.

How did he go anyone? Was that back far enough that it was money, ie union still unpaid then?

anyway, here is the link if anyone is interested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...l_code_to_another#Rugby_union_to_rugby_league

edit prob not very accurate I'd say

Yes,Kirwan was a high profile signing for the Warriors in their first season.Obviously trying to win over NZ rugby fans,but he was not so successful as it was very late in his career.I think he played for 2 seasons.He was certainly a great rugby winger and seems like a pretty fair coach now.

 

[USARugger]

Yes,Kirwan was a high profile signing for the Warriors in their first season.Obviously trying to win over NZ rugby fans,but he was not so successful as it was very late in his career.I think he played for 2 seasons.He was certainly a great rugby winger and seems like a pretty fair coach now.

He completely overhauled the Brave Blossoms attack and play-style in general and really made Japan pull away in terms of being the dominant team in the Asia 5. He also turned the Blues around more or less in the space of a few months after they spent an entire season in free-fall. I'd say he's a little more than just a fair coach!

 

[USARugger]

Why look for a team called All Golds, I only talking about Maori Rugby, and saying it was around before League was, so can't see how it was started to combat league, what you say up there maybe it's the opposite?. And the best NZ Maori team many say was the one in the 20s. As I said the first team to tour Australia in 1888 (or thereabouts) was NZ Natives. And no it doesn't serve as a NZ 2nds team today,and never has, they call that the NZ Juniors. PI aren't actually eligible for Maoris, they may have played the odd one years back, in the days they were picked more for colour of skin than lineage,but fortunately the world has moved on from those days.
I think people do care about development of Island rugby, just most Rugby Unions tend to need their money to keep their own game going.

The entire reason Cullen got pulled into the Maori was to give him greater exposure and game time at the top level so he had a shot at regaining his All Blacks spot before the RWC. The Maori have absolutely been transformed into a feeder/prep team for the All Blacks since this point. Just because NZ Juniors and NZ-A exist doesn't mean that the Maori side isn't also being used to groom and develop talent.

 

[Bullrush]

The entire reason Cullen got pulled into the Maori was to give him greater exposure and game time at the top level so he had a shot at regaining his All Blacks spot before the RWC. The Maori have absolutely been transformed into a feeder/prep team for the All Blacks since this point. Just because NZ Juniors and NZ-A exist doesn't mean that the Maori side isn't also being used to groom and develop talent.

This just simply isn't true. The Maori teams primary function isn't to groom and develop talent - I almost liken it to the 7's team. Yes, some players go back and forwards between the teams but they are totally different teams with separate purposes. The Maori team doesn't exist as some sort of feeder team to the All Blacks and there are plenty of Kiwis and Maori who would find that notion quite offensive.

 

[terry j]

Two of the early instigators for the introduction of the professional game in 1905 were James Joynton Smith and Victor Trumper, the cricketer. Joynton Smith founded Smith's Weekly with Frank Packer's father and made a fortune out of it. JS was Lord Mayor of Sydney in 1917, you can see his name inscribed up on the George Street side of the Queen Victoria Building.

Sean Fagan would have a more comprehensive (and better) piece on the advent of league in Australia somewhere on his website.

Cheers

had a look at his website, not tooo much there, but from that saw he'd written a few books etc. Anyways, borrowed from the library the only book they had from him, twas the biography of messenger and of course it briefly covered this area. (and touched upon some of the points by wamberal)

Gee, the insistence on amateurism (which was still a big thing into recent times eh) certainly did no-one any real good.

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the pointer to it. (one thing that was totally new was back then that 'sculling', ie on the water, was such huge business! Messengers background was in boatbuilding so he naturally gravitated towards that for a while, they were racing for prizes of around five hundred pounds, in the 1890's!! What the hell what that be worth nowadays???)

Due to gambling etc that sport lost it's allure in the eyes of the public and so died away to the fringe thing it is nowadays. So much so that I'd hazard the only common reference to sculling now would be at the after game drinks of watching the rugby! (or league, just to stay on topic haha)

so raise a glass to dally m.

 

[USARugger]

This just simply isn't true. The Maori teams primary function isn't to groom and develop talent - I almost liken it to the 7's team. Yes, some players go back and forwards between the teams but they are totally different teams with separate purposes. The Maori team doesn't exist as some sort of feeder team to the All Blacks and there are plenty of Kiwis and Maori who would find that notion quite offensive.

Wait, so you don't think the NZ 7s team is a feeder program for the All Blacks either?

You know that a program can be a feeder team without solely focusing on being a feeder team..right? Any program which in any way is deliberately used to prepare or groom talent for a higher-level team is a feeder program.

 

[Bullrush]

Wait, so you don't think the NZ 7s team is a feeder program for the All Blacks either?

You know that a program can be a feeder team without solely focusing on being a feeder team..right? Any program which in any way is deliberately used to prepare or groom talent for a higher-level team is a feeder program.

Well that means the 7s AND the Maori team are definitely NOT feeder teams. They are not there to prepare and groom talent for the All Blacks.

If they were feeder teams then they're fucken useless at it....not many ABs coming up thru their ranks.....

 

[Rassie]

Why look for a team called All Golds, I only talking about Maori Rugby, and saying it was around before League was, so can't see how it was started to combat league, what you say up there maybe it's the opposite?. And the best NZ Maori team many say was the one in the 20s. As I said the first team to tour Australia in 1888 (or thereabouts) was NZ Natives. And no it doesn't serve as a NZ 2nds team today,and never has, they call that the NZ Juniors. PI aren't actually eligible for Maoris, they may have played the odd one years back, in the days they were picked more for colour of skin than lineage,but fortunately the world has moved on from those days.
I think people do care about development of Island rugby, just most Rugby Unions tend to need their money to keep their own game going.

History is written where the history of a team or whatever one look are stated. But one have to look what happen in that time as well in the world and see what happened at the same time. History is almost like reading the Quaran. On its own it will not make a lot of sense but with the Sunnah and Hadith it does as the in between the lines are filled in.

By the turn of the 20th century, rugby union had established itself as the most popular,
male game in New Zealand. However, this position was never secure because,
paradoxically, the popularity of the rugby union game was embedded through
transnational rivalries, in particular, rivalries with the ‘Home Countries’. These
rivalries required players to tour and it was these players who, ironically, challenged
the sport from ‘within’. Dissatisfied with the NZRFU’s meagre tour allowances, these
players challenged the national union’s reluctance to share the financial success
created by the All Black team’s performances abroad and in New Zealand. In doing
so, they helped promote the rival code, rugby league, in the southern hemisphere.

Role of this player challenge in the establishment of the New
Zealand Maori team is retraced and it is suggested that this separate team was critical
in securing the rugby union code’s ascendancy relative to the emerging rugby league
code.

Concerning the ALL Golds

The organisation of a tour of the Northern Union rugby (league) clubs in England by
New Zealand rugby union players in 1907-08, named the ‘All Golds’ in press reports
(Haynes, 1996), encouraged the establishment of the highly popular club-based rugby
league competitions in Australia. Despite the fact that all but one of the All Golds
team were New Zealand rugby players, it did not facilitate the establishment of the
rugby league code in a position to compete with the popular rugby union in New Zealand

Despite the failure of the rugby league codes to secure a position in New Zealand, a
national Maori rugby league team toured Australia successfully in 1909. The success
of this tour followed a failed tour in 1908. Significantly, the 1908 rugby league team
was a ‘private’ Maori team (Moorhouse, 1995; Davidson, 1947; Smith, 1998). Despite
the touring party running into financial difficulties, it encouraged the sending of the
first official New Zealand representative Maori rugby league team in 1909. The 1909
team enjoyed significant success on the field. One test attracted 40,000 spectators
(Davidson, 1947: 59), and another 23,000 (Moorhouse, 1995: 83). These matches
raised spectator interest in the rugby league game in Australia and, in 1910, a match
between an Australian rugby league team and a visiting British Northern Union team
was attended by 39,000 (Phillips, 1996: 199).

According to McCarthy and Howitt (1983), the 1909 Maori Rugby League team was
potentially a more severe blow for the NZRFU than the threat presented by the All
Golds tour and the defection by players to rugby league. They suggest that a
significant number of prominent Maori players would have switched to rugby league
and helped establish this code as the national sport in New Zealand if the suggestion by
Parata, a Maori rugby union administrator, to send a Maori ‘All Black’ team to
Australia in 1910 had not been accepted by NZRFU administrators. Writing on the
success of the 1905-06 All Black team’s they noted:
…the success of Gallaher’s team in the British Isles in 1905-06 was to cause the New Zealand
Rugby Union much worry in the next few years, and the chances were, and are, that had it not
been for a Maori, Wiremu Teihoka Parata, commonly and lovingly known as Ned Parata, the
game of rugby could possibly have given way to league as our national game (McCarthy and
Howitt, 1983: 75-77).

According to McCarthy and Howitt (1983), the exodus of Maori players in the early
1900s was provoked by the omission of Maori players from the All Black team. They
argue that from 1903 to 1913 only three Maori were included in All Black teams and
that “the years from 1896 when Gage captained New Zealand, to 1910 when the first
official Maori team was selected, were lean years in rugby for Maori” (1983: 72). It
was in this context that Parata voiced his concern with the number of Maori who
“frustrated at their being passed over in rugby circles, almost flocked to the alternative
– league” (McCarthy and Howitt, 1983: 75).

http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/914/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf
We all know the Kiwi's. Part of the history is forgotten cause it has not gained media attention. Read the above since you do not want to go look it up. Its all the blanks filled in for you and you will also see what was actually troubling the Kiwi team in the 1995 WC.

 

[USARugger]

Well that means the 7s AND the Maori team are definitely NOT feeder teams. They are not there to prepare and groom talent for the All Blacks.

If they were feeder teams then they're fucken useless at it..not many ABs coming up thru their ranks...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_Sevens_Representatives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Māori_All_Blacks#Notable_former_players

Yeah hardly any All Blacks in there at all!

Please just stop because you're completely fucking wrong.