Rugby League really gives me the shits

[Bullrush]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_Sevens_Representatives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Māori_All_Blacks#Notable_former_players

Yeah hardly any All Blacks in there at all!

Please just stop because you're completely fucking wrong.

Yeah......it's obvious that your knowledge of NZ rugby comes completely from wikipedia.

Go thru those lists and see how many became All Blacks straight from 7's. Very few if any. When AB selectors are looking for players, they look at Super Rugby form - not 7's. Otherwise DJ Forbes, Tomasi Cama, Amasio Valance and Karl Te Nana would have been All Black legends. Jono Gibbes, Deon Muir, Rua Tipoki as well. A lot of the great names in both these teams never get a crack at the AB no matter how good they play for those teams and many 7's players fight just for Super Rugby contracts.

Having actually lived in NZ most of my life and knowing a few representative players over the years, 7's and the Maori All Blacks are not seen as pathways to the All Blacks. Yes, Maori and 7's players may ALSO be All Blacks but sometimes, players represent the All Blacks before representing in one of those teams.

Calling these teams 'feeder teams' to the All Blacks is like calling Kelston Boys and MAGS feeder teams to the ABs.

But yeah.....wikipedia can't possibly be wrong......

 

[USARugger]

I'm done trying to argue with you over the definition of a 'feeder team'. If you really think that squads in which players are specifically placed to prepare them to play for the All Blacks can't be called feeder teams we have nothing to talk about.

Being a pathway and being a feeder are two completely different things, fyi.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm done trying to argue with you over the definition of a 'feeder team'. If you really think that squads in which players are specifically placed to prepare them to play for the All Blacks can't be called feeder teams we have nothing to talk about.

Being a pathway and being a feeder are two completely different things, fyi.

But Bullrush is right.........

They're not specifically put into those teams to prepare them for the All Blacks.........

 

[Antony]

But Bullrush is right...

They're not specifically put into those teams to prepare them for the All Blacks...

Some players are definitely put into the 7s side to refresh them for the all blacks - off the top of my head, I remember Joe Rockets a few years back was given a stint in 7s to regain his mojo.

I think the maori side is different though. The AB coaches might look at maori form and value it, but I'd be very surprised if Hansen and co. were able to instruct the current maori coach (Joseph?) on who to pick or where to play them.

 

[Bullrush]

I'm done trying to argue with you over the definition of a 'feeder team'. If you really think that squads in which players are specifically placed to prepare them to play for the All Blacks can't be called feeder teams we have nothing to talk about.

Being a pathway and being a feeder are two completely different things, fyi.

Ummmm.....players aren't specifically placed in either of these teams to prepare them to play for the All Blacks. That is not why they exist. That's why you rarely see players coming straight from the 7's or the Maori and going into the ABs.

Who was the last player specifically placed in either team in preparation for the All Blacks?

 

[Bullrush]

Some players are definitely put into the 7s side to refresh them for the all blacks - off the top of my head, I remember Joe Rockets a few years back was given a stint in 7s to regain his mojo.

I think the maori side is different though. The AB coaches might look at maori form and value it, but I'd be very surprised if Hansen and co. were able to instruct the current maori coach (Joseph?) on who to pick or where to play them.

Joe Roks was already an AB and a pretty well-established one at that stage. Titjens still wanted him for 7's and he wasn't considered up to scratch for the AB's he went there. It's no different to be being dropped and playing for your club again.

Interestingly enough, when his form dipped in 2008 and Titjens asked if he could come back to the 7's, the AB's denied the request. If the 7's really was a feeder team, surely that would have just been a formality?

But we're going back to 2005 as the most recent case of any kind of suggestion that players are specifically placed in these teams to prepare for the AB's. Go and have a look at the NZ Team Watch threads on here and name the players who are being looked at due to their 7's and Maori rugby form. Again - if they are 'feeder' teams, someone should tell the NZRFU because they aren't really 'feeding' any players through.

 

[Jack Winiata Robertson]

The requirement for selection today is a DNA test or historical affirmation of their whakapapa, I believe. I actually spoke too early in my first post, this is a shift away from the former policy of only accepting players which were visibly Maori and also who were entrenched in Maori culture. The new standard of selection heavily depoliticizes the Maori ABs because it's a purely heritage-based selection process without any of the cultural hang-ons attached to it. That is to say it shifts the focus of the team away from White-exclusion to honoring their Maori heritage (an extension of the ancestor-worship so prevalent in Maori culture).

I was only 13 in 2004 and couldn't have told you the difference between a rugby ball and my own asshole at the time. So no, I didn't know about the Cullen incident. Reading up on it the only real controversy I'm seeing is that his Maori heritage was questionable and he was a bit of a dick about things. This appears to be the actual moment in time though when this shift in the focus of the Maori AB squad happened. As opposed to what it used to stand for the Maori ABs became more of an alternate feeder for the ABs than anything else.

Australia and South Africa would never do something like that because there is no historical-cultural tie between the game and those ethnic groups. Maori in New Zealand have a history documented dating back to the 1870s of playing Rugby Union. The contemporary and historical race relations in NZ as compared to Oz and SA are apples and oranges. Yes terrible shit happened during the colonial period (as it did nearly everywhere else on Earth) and yes the Maori and NZEs clashed multiple times with deaths on both sides. But, this never happened and apartheid wasn't upheld in NZ into the 1990s. The contemporary racial issues in SA and Australia are also much, much worse.

It's also an enormous stretch to call the Maori ABs racist based on the fact that they will only play athletes with Maori heritage as it in no way hinders non-Maori players from getting to the ABs. NZ-A and the Junior All Blacks exist for that.

Hey mate, my grand father aswell as other members of my family have all represented the Maori All Blacks. We have a huge connection to the Horowhenua-Kapiti region, as that is where my Rohe, tribe, and Marae is. Cully was from Paekakariki, and grew up playing for Kapiti High School, and made his start for Horowhenua and then Manawatu representative sides. I am pretty certain he is of Maori descent, I think to be a NZ Maori you have to be atleast 1 64th maori, and know your Whakapapa - genealogy and background, aswell as mountains, rivers, all aspects of your own heritage, and Whanau perfectly. So your pretty spot on about the selection process. Cullen is in my opinion one of the nicest rugby players I know, and a great AB. The NZ Maori is more a tradition like you said, as apposed to a racial anti white rugby team, and most NZERs are very proud of them. Not to mention in 2005 we beat the British and Irish Lions if that is of any relevance. The best Maori players would pick playing for the AB's over the NZ Maori, so in that aspect it is like a secondary team to the ABs, for example Liam Messam. You should catch a game between Horowhenua kapiti and Ngatiporou East Coast.

 

[Jack Winiata Robertson]

Bullrush, I noticed that you have some involvement in NZ Gridiron or whatever, how would I go about joining one of these clubs?

 

[Dan54]

Well said Jack, being a Horowhenua man myself (and no doubt knowing plenty of your Whanau), I have tried to explain to people how good the old East Coast/Nua game were, a lesson in culture as well rugby's true values I always thought!
Also always have a chuckle when people who don't know Cully knock him, I was on JAB in the Nua when he was coming through the ranks as 13-14yo, everyone knew he was eligible for Maori even at that age he was being looked at.....and anyone who mat him knew what a shy quiet kid he was.

 

[BPC]

Fair enough Spieber, the title of thread maybe a little harsh.

(cough) Nate Myles (cough)

It seems League gives even it's own players the shits.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

../,,,snip.../.. You should catch a game between Horowhenua kapiti and Ngatiporou East Coast.

My mate from Wellington (NZ) tells me that the Bus Driver (they don't fly much on the East Coast) for the East Coast team has to pack his boots whenever the team go on tour. He has had to be drafted into the Squad on more than one occasion. Don't care if this story is true or not. It is plausible enough and makes for a good yarn. Love Country Grass Roots rugby stories like this.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

The Maori Rugby team is a well established tradition in NZ rugby, being an officially recognised team in 1910. It's normal role is to play touring teams to NZ but they have undertaken tours in the past (last one was in 2012 to the UK - played 3 lost 1). In this touring squad there were 26 players with 13 being 25 or younger and having 4 players over the age of 30. From this I don't think it can be seen to be a development squad for future All Black teams.

I would also suggest that if you ask any player of maori heritage (and these days you must have this heritage to play for them - Peri Weepu may be a good one to ask) that the Maori team is something trivial then you will get a very sudden and harsh reality check. The Maori team have certain restrictions as to picking current AB's. For a Maori player getting picked in the Maori All Blacks is jsut about the same honour as being picked for the NZ All Blacks (in some circumstances some look at it as a higher honour as they are representing their ancestral family and tribal heritage). They have a very proud history (such as defeating the 2005 Lions on their tour to NZ).

To say they were developed to combat league is crap. To say that they are the NZ A side is crap and to say that their objective is to develop future All Blacks is further bullshit.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I love the Maori team. Just in todays world politicians and others do not know better and have other agenda's. And considering they were created to rival Rugby league and Union is proffesional now as well as the All Blacks being so diverse are they actually still needed?

I have no opinion on the NZ Maori team - it seems to have been around for ever - and it's up to the Kiwis what they choose to do...

I do however, have an issue with the NRL Indiginous team - not the players per se - they are merely the naive meat in the sandwich - I have an issue with the NRL and whoever came up with this appalling concept...

To put it another way: Why don't they play an Australian Whites Team? - (No Wogs, No Dagos, No Abos or Sand Niggers. No eyties or abbysinians, in fact, no-one with an non Anglo-Saxon name)...

We all know about how long that idea might fly. It would never see the light of day, because it is an instinctively offensive notion. The concept of an Indigenous team in australia playing against the 'other' is no less offensive and neanderthal to me - and most people I know with an educated opinion on life...

They trot these poor bastards out in front of the cameras and get them to say "I am so proud to be representing my people" - and they probably genuinely Are... The problem is, that if the same NRL put together Whites-Only team these are the very same players who would be first to be screaming like banshees that these other Australian - Welsh/English/Irish/Scottish/Canadian/German/ French/New Zealanders MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO DISCRIMINATE by representing THEIR People.

If I had a few more dollars in the Bank, I think I would take them to the International Human Rights Tribunal, and get them to pay out a shed-load of money as reparation - don't much care to whom... Racially specific teams in Auatralia ought to be scrubbed out immediately...

Its an excrable condescending joke, played out on an unsuspecting minority.

 

[Braveheart81]

I do however, have an issue with the NRL Indiginous team - not the players per se - they are merely the naive meat in the sandwich - I have an issue with the NRL and whoever came up with this appalling concept.

Indigenous rugby league player Preston Campbell came up with the concept and was instrumental in getting it off the ground.

I see where you're coming from to an extent. Am I meant to cheer for the All Stars team because I'm not indigenous? That notion is ridiculous to me.

It has to just be considered as an exhibition game. Indigenous fans are welcome to cheer for their team but rugby league fans in general should just be cheering for a good game and a great spectacle.

It is fair to say that there is a huge amount of indigenous talent in rugby league and they form some of the best players in the competition. I don't think there is any issue celebrating that.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I know where you are coming from... But using that logic, there is no harm in a good game of Rugby League which is played by a Whites-Only side...

Hang On - The South Africans tried that, and everyone got really, really upset! There was no harm in that, surely?

I thought some of those Bokke Sides were pretty entertaining.

The concept is DEEPLY offensive to me as an Australian. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Braveheart81]

I know where you are coming from. But using that logic, there is no harm in a good game of Rugby League which is played by a Whites-Only side.

Hang On - The South Africans tried that, and everyone got really, really upset! There was no harm in that, surely?

I thought some of those Bokke Sides were pretty entertaining.

The concept is DEEPLY offensive to me as an Australian. You can't have it both ways.

We had a very long discussion about a similar topic in regards to the Sydney Convicts and the Gay Rugby World Cup (and Mardi Gras etc.) in another thread a couple of years ago.

There is a massive difference between having an event related to celebrating the achievements, success of the overcoming of adversity of a minority and having a team that excludes minorities from the majority.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I'm done trying to argue with you over the definition of a 'feeder team'. If you really think that squads in which players are specifically placed to prepare them to play for the All Blacks can't be called feeder teams we have nothing to talk about.

Being a pathway and being a feeder are two completely different things, fyi.

But thats the point the no player is now placed into the Maori team to prepare tehm to represent the AB's. The Maori team is an independant thing where the best players outside the current AB's with Maori heritage get selected to play touring teams or sometimes undertake short tours. Consideration of being a feeder, pathway or any other thing you may call it does not come into it

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Taking your point seriously, why do u factor-in the question of minorities and majorities?

This is perhaps an issue in politics, but has nothing to do with Sport (in australia). It is intellectual trollop to suggest that a Minority excluding others on the basis of race, is in any way more noble than a majority doing the same.

It is not about Power, because a case cannot be plausibly made for people of any race being held-back in Australian Sport in an institutional manner...

A Whites-only Springbok team is no More Offensive than a Blacks-only Sprinbok team, and each should be treated with equivalent Contempt.

I have no real opinion on a Gay Rugby World Cup... (apart from the obvious pointlessness of the exercise - it makes about as much sense as a Red-Haired-One-Legged RWC)... But in principle, the idea of a gays-only Sporting Team is equally as reprehensible as a Sporting Team which does not allow Blacks... or does not allow Whites...

I am totally confident that You can understand the Logic which says "I will oppose a Whites-Only Springbok Team as being morally reprehensible, but I will support your right to have an Aboriginals-only Rugby Team"... as being at once; Duplicitous, Condescending in the Extreme, and Hypocritical - even in Politically-correct circles.

You may as well just pat the players on the Head, and feed them a Biscuit!

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

The difference between the Maori All Blacks, with its traditions and the honour the maori feel playing for it and the Loig Indigenous side is like chalk and cheese - one is tradition and one is money making

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

The difference between the Maori All Blacks, with its traditions and the honour the maori feel playing for it and the Loig Indigenous side is like chalk and cheese - one is tradition and one is money making

You are right - I will express no opinion on the Maori Union side - but the Indignous League team is nothing more than a cynical exercise in money raising by the NRL - and they trot out these Aboriginal Lads telling them they are somehow honouring their aboriginality...

Its cheap and tacky - and the Aboriginal Boys should have told them to &*$% OFF.