School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Black & White]

Its already happened and happening.

Third party inducements are outlawed as much as direct inducements but they are harder to prove

I first heard of it with Eastern Suburbs paying the fees of three players in 1999 at Scots. That year they got a 5/8, an outside centre and a Fullback.
However, the Kings sides of the late 1990s and early 2000s were largely successful due to benefactors. In these cases TKS parents were the contributors. However, Dr Hawkes apparently stopped it. Although I heard the 2010 TKS side was full of such placements ( They produced 8 Australian Schoolboys).

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Its already happened and happening.

Third party inducements are outlawed as much as direct inducements but they are harder to prove

But if a third party is paying the bills for a talented athlete to attend a school and the school has not encouraged that in any way shape or form, then is there a breach of the AAGPS Code of Conduct?

The mungo clubs could be paying the amount of the school fees directly to the family, so all the schools see is the fees being paid by a family member.

 

[Not in straight]

But if a third party is paying the bills for a talented athlete to attend a school and the school has not encouraged that in any way shape or form, then is there a breach of the AAGPS Code of Conduct?

The mungo clubs could be paying the amount of the school fees directly to the family, so all the schools see is the fees being paid by a family member.

The Schools are fully involved. They are making places available.

Just turning a blind eye to where the money is really coming from.

Do the 6 main rugby GPS schools all have waiting lists for year 7 entry?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Kids drop out, change schools, or get expelled from time to time. Parents move overseas or interstate to create vacancies.

They get filled somehow.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

But if a third party is paying the bills for a talented athlete to attend a school and the school has not encouraged that in any way shape or form, then is there a breach of the AAGPS Code of Conduct?

The mungo clubs could be paying the amount of the school fees directly to the family, so all the schools see is the fees being paid by a family member.

Probably not but the rule would suggest that even if a school let it be known that it was keen to enrol boys for their footballing prowess and would like well heeled mungo clubs to foot the bill then I would suggest that they run foul of the code of conduct in spirit if not in letter - that would be indirect but its still caught.
The bigger issue, one of the welfare of the recipient, comes when as has been told to me recently, these boys are permitted to undertake less than a full load of subjects and have no intention of getting the HSC, or IB, and are not even eligible to do so. That suggests they are at the school for rugby only and that they have not got what they ought to out of the deal: if that is happening the schools should never under any circumstance be a party to it whatever the code of conduct says.

 

[Quick Hands]

The Schools are fully involved. They are making places available.

Just turning a blind eye to where the money is really coming from.

Do the 6 main rugby GPS schools all have waiting lists for year 7 entry?

According to their website, Newington have closed waiting lists for entry for Years 5 and 7 out to 2023. This implication is that the waiting lists are already too big for those years.

Not quite Shoresque, but not much space for anomolies I'd have thought.

For entry to Year 5 or 7 at our Stanmore campus from 2017- 2023 please be advised registrations are CLOSED due to high demand for places. Unfortunately, we are unable to accept any NEW registrations for these entry years. There are limited vacancies for entry into Year 5 at Lindfield K-6 in 2018 and beyond.
http://www.newington.nsw.edu.au/admissions/

 

[Quick Hands]

As the inner city population explodes, with high rise residential wealth there should be expectation that Newington's Numbers will continue to grow. Last time I was there, the Old Wyvern House Site was being demolished, clearly a building programme in response to the increased and likely increase in numbers. Lets hope those increase numbers can translate into increased Rugby numbers and teams.

They come from all over Sydney, not just the inner-west. Quite a big north shore/northern beaches contingent now (and growing) enrolment issues at Shore may have played a part, but I suspect that the academic would be more of a driver than the sport. Sport just being a natural beneficiary.

 

[Not in straight]

As per my first response, It simply Wrong, Wrong Wrong and should not happen.

Seems in this little exchange Newington, Scots and Kings are all implied in this activity in recent years.

So the schools bring in enough Talent to win a comp and destroy the integrity of the competition for every other kid in it.

 

[Quick Hands]

As per my first response, It simply Wrong, Wrong Wrong and should not happen.

Seems in this little exchange Newington, Scots and Kings are all implied in this activity in recent years.

So the schools bring in enough Talent to win a comp and destroy the integrity of the competition for every other kid in it.

I wouldn't necessarily limit it to those three either - I'd say that the number would be closer to 5 than it is to 3.

 

[cyclopath]

Yes, one of the last great Grammar sides, as was 1974 & 1978. Although, the 1978 side started out been beaten convincingly in their first three matches only to turn it around in their fourth game against Joeys. The only other team after 1980 was the 1986 side who won 4 out 7. Such a tragic loss of tradition. It now appears Kings are now also going down the drain, with a loss of their playing numbers to soccer.

Yet I was told, only a few years ago that TKS had a waiting list longer than that of Shore ( Is that Possible). To get a place you had to be an Old Boy and from the country. Clearly, this not the case any more.

In the 13s,14s,15s & 16s they have exactly the same of Teams as Newington
18 teams. Only in the Opens do their traditional numbers remain, 9 Teams.
But on present trends I expect that this number will decrease to 6 or 7 in a year or two. Good Grief, Newington might even have more Rugby Numbers than Kings by then. And we don't have more than 60 boarders.

They won 3/7 in '85 too. 3 of the losses were by 3 or less. Pretty competitive. '81-'84 was pretty rugged though.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I agree @Inside Shoulder that if the School, or Rugby supporters/OBU let it be known that the school would look favourably on talented footballers from Mungoland who wanted to enroll then that would be a real breach of the Cof C.

If however the Mungo clubs were silly enough to pay full freight for one of their "contracted" players, recognizing that minors can't apparently be legally contracted to a club, to get an AAGPS education then is the receiving school in breach of the code. They were just filling a vacancy.

It is not only jocks who stuff around at school with no intention of doing HSC or IB. Plenty of indulged rich non jocks fall into that category.

 

[Black & White]

I wouldn't necessarily limit it to those three either - I'd say that the number would be closer to 5 than it is to 3.

Although not GPS, but St.Augustines's 1st XV, particularly its Backline is reputed to be a junior Manly Rugby league rep backline. Also, the Sports High Schools, are very much Rugby League rep teams as well.

 

[moa999]

This should be discouraged by all associated with the AAGPS.

It is not what this School Rugby competition is about.

Your implication is that League clubs will sponsor talent through the school. So this is a Sporting Scholarship given by a third party - not the school.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. The School should not have any part of it.

Been going on for years, and involving a number of clubs and schools.

Obviously no contract for a kid under 18 but a firm handshake with the parents and clear expectations

--

With the right contacts waiting lists are no problem. Ever wondered why kids of senior execs who's parents get transferred to Sydney end up at the right schools (note most can't pay rugby. I do remember one who played yr 10 Vic first XV, never quite made it)

 

[loiterer]

As per my first response, It simply Wrong, Wrong Wrong and should not happen.

Seems in this little exchange Newington, Scots and Kings are all implied in this activity in recent years.

So the schools bring in enough Talent to win a comp and destroy the integrity of the competition for every other kid in it.

I am not sure what you mean NIS. It seems as though Newington, Scots and Kings do not have the depth of joeys, Riverview or shore. They have too few players to have viable A teams without recruiting good players. Joeys and Riverview have discovered that giving bursaries to disadvantaged indigenous kids can accidently uncover great rugby players even if they have never played rugby before. Shore may have even found the same thing. It appears to me that if N, S & K don't somehow recruit these players their A teams will be quite weak. Ultimately it would mean a weak GPS first competition. The "pure" teams would win every week but the victories would be hollow. Isn't it better to play against tough opponents than excessively weak ones?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Probably right ... ... ... But there is a nasty little thing called the AAGPS Code of Conduct that all Heads of School have signed up to. That rather inconvenient little agreement expressly precludes schools from recruiting talented athletes.

Hypocrisy 101.

The AAGPS is founded on traditions of honour, and allowing free reign by amending the agreement could undermine the very foundations of what the AAGPS stands for.

 

[Black & White]

I am not sure what you mean NIS. It seems as though Newington, Scots and Kings do not have the depth of joeys, Riverview or shore. They have too few players to have viable A teams without recruiting good players. Joeys and Riverview have discovered that giving bursaries to disadvantaged indigenous kids can accidently uncover great rugby players even if they have never played rugby before. Shore may have even found the same thing. It appears to me that if N, S & K don't somehow recruit these players their A teams will be quite weak. Ultimately it would mean a weak GPS first competition. The "pure" teams would win every week but the victories would be hollow. Isn't it better to play against tough opponents than excessively weak ones?

I starting to wonder, if an American College football style competition is variable. Where scholarships are openly there for the taking. I accept that traditionalists will not approve, but the need to have a balanced competition to me is more important. Certain schools will naturally attract depth, while others because of soccer numbers will not. Its means rewriting the Codes of Conduct, but we live in era of professional sport. So should GPS Rugby "Bite the Bullet" and begin this century with new rules, but also a new GPS structure that includes say Knox Grammar and if they are prepared to drop league and come to the one true faith, Rugby Union, St. Gregory's College at Campbelltown.

The 21st Century is very different world, from that of the Late 19th Century when the GPS system came into existence. I love many of the traditions of the GPS, but I am also like to think of myself as a realist. On present trends in our rugby playing schools our game, Rugby Union is in massive decline. Many factors are the cause, number one being it is easier for a teacher to coach a soccer team than a rugby team, that really needs to two coaches ( Forwards and Backs).

I really think a revised GPS needs discussion and should be left to a small group of Headmasters.

 

[Black & White]

My apologies, the last sentence should say" should not be left to a small group of Headmasters". The GPS system belongs as much to its Old Boys as anybody else.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My apologies, the last sentence should say" should not be left to a small group of Headmasters". The GPS system belongs as much to its Old Boys as anybody else.

The idea that the "GPS" belongs to Old Boys probably explains the differences between the schools.
Im told the TKS old boys are appalled at the non-appointment of Andrew Parry as the replacement head - KOBs have spots on the Council.
The Grammar Trustees have no spots for old boys and have several ex officio members who would only be old boys by sheer chance: that is one reason why ignoring sport, and in particular, rugby got a hold in the late 70's - since the old boys could have no guarantee of getting a son in unless he passed the academic requirements the old boys ceased taking an interest in the life of the school and the head was free of the bleating of 2nd and 3rd generation pupils.
The problem with your position B&W is that it ignores the fact that sport is only an adjunct to education, by which a boy is supposed to be more rounded than if he merely studies his way through life. None of the schools would ever publicly accept that rugby is more important than school work.
And if they did you'd have to wonder about the type of message they would be sending to their charges.
Unless sport is paramount its hard to justify a scholarship free for all.

 

[Black & White]

The idea that the "GPS" belongs to Old Boys probably explains the differences between the schools.
Im told the TKS old boys are appalled at the non-appointment of Andrew Parry as the replacement head - KOBs have spots on the Council.
The Grammar Trustees have no spots for old boys and have several ex officio members who would only be old boys by sheer chance: that is one reason why ignoring sport, and in particular, rugby got a hold in the late 70's - since the old boys could have no guarantee of getting a son in unless he passed the academic requirements the old boys ceased taking an interest in the life of the school and the head was free of the bleating of 2nd and 3rd generation pupils.
The problem with your position B&W is that it ignores the fact that sport is only an adjunct to education, by which a boy is supposed to be more rounded than if he merely studies his way through life. None of the schools would ever publicly accept that rugby is more important than school work.
And if they did you'd have to wonder about the type of message they would be sending to their charges.
Unless sport is paramount its hard to justify a scholarship free for all.

A most valid point IS, unfortunately there are still parents who see their sons success at a GPS School, being graded into a top sports team. I remember a friend from school once saying that life at Newington would be great, if it wasn't for all those exams and assignments. Needless to say his HSC result was less than brilliant. But his parents owned their own business that he inherited so academic orientation was not important. But, that has now largely changed at most GPS schools, but still existents in small pockets with the exception of I presume of Grammar.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There are a series of Sports High Schools dotted around the State for those that believe sport is paramount.

What's more is that they don't come with the heavy school fees requirement that accompany a private school enrollment.