School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[rollin_maul]

Clearly you know your GPS Rugby History so you don't need any assistance from me to point out the school.

I actually don't know my GPS rugby history that well at all. Prior to reading your post I couldn't have told you who won In 2010, let alone placed 2nd, 3rd etc. All the stats in my reply where in link below, found by doing google search.

http://portals.studentnet.edu.au/SPORTS/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=156

Scroll down and you will find results from 2010. From your description of the 'Team full of ARROGANT IMPORTS" and the match results, its possible you may have been referring to up to 4 different teams.

If I knew which team you were referring to, I wouldn't have asked.

 

[I like to watch]

You're just playing with definitions and moving the goal posts like I said. Here's a video that might help you see what I mean:


To throw a definition at you "Holistic education is a philosophy of education based on the premise that each person finds identity, meaning, and purpose in life through connections to the community, to the natural world, and to humanitarian values such as compassion and peace." That's from Wikipedia, so not perfect but certainly a conversation point.

This definition could not be measured by tertiary admittance/completion.

I'll add that your idea that tertiary education is the key metric of success is extraordinarily elitist, and I study.

What a load of tosh.

Nice definition,but again how does making school kids train more sessions and more hours than professional fringe Tahs players, give them a more holistic education?
You continuing to say it,doesn't make it so.

Im guessing you work for the cigarette / coal /sugar lobbyists, or in enrolments for one of these schools

 

[Black & White]

I actually don't know my GPS rugby history that well at all. Prior to reading your post I couldn't have told you who won In 2010, let alone placed 2nd, 3rd etc. All the stats in my reply where in link below, found by doing google search.

http://portals.studentnet.edu.au/SPORTS/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=156

Scroll down and you will find results from 2010. From your description of the 'Team full of ARROGANT IMPORTS" and the match results, its possible you may have been referring to up to 4 different teams.

If I knew which team you were referring to, I wouldn't have asked.

So i ask again. Which team that lost to Newington In 2010 was, in your opinion, full of arrogant imports.

This is not Royal Commision. And you won't be sent to the naughty corner if you do or dont respond.

But may I ask that, if you choose not to reveal who you think it was, that you might refrain from making vague and unsubstantiated claims in the future.

Honestly,you know perfectly well which school I am talking about. Your knowledge of the 2010 season indicates that, despite your attempts to deny it.

The fact you believed ,initially, I was referring to Scots indicates to me a sense of guilt by some of your supporters.Not that Scots should be ashamed of its recruitment policies, as one of your talented players came from a housing commission apartment in Redfern. In this regard I believe Scots should be congratulated in giving this boy a chance to succeed. Other Schools who shall remain nameless, would not have even considered this boy.

However, as with most schools, teenage boys will exhibit arrogance if they excel at something others will not.It depends on the school,coaching culture and ultimately the boys themselves. All schools experience this and Newington in my school days had a number of boys of the 1st XV and the 1st Vlll, who were a bit full of their own self-importance.

The reason I public won't name the school is that the Headmaster, stopped this third party importing by parents. Its now history.

 

[amirite]

What a load of tosh.

Nice definition,but again how does making school kids train more sessions and more hours than professional fringe Tahs players, give them a more holistic education?
You continuing to say it,doesn't make it so.

Im guessing you work for the cigarette / coal /sugar lobbyists, or in enrolments of one of these schools

Mate, the largest single body of information on the internet says this definition. To call it a load of tosh is questioning general consensus in a way that's, well, incredibly creative.

To further the point, these larger private schools, which you gents seem to be very passionate about, have the funding to focus on extra-curricular and social/values based development in a way other schools simply can't. This is what holistic education is, what a scholarship gives, and these schools' greatest strength. It's their greatest strength considering that parental engagement (or one could call it 'pressure') is the largest driver of academic performance and not school resourcing. This is the reason that certain ethnic communities outperform others at a population level in the same school.

Furthermore, did I literally say "if a school kid trains more than a fringe Tahs player it means that they're being holistically educated"? No. Did I figuratively say that or is it a paraphrase of something I said? No.

I think you've built a strawman of the argument you're fighting against and you're addressing that, but you're not directly or indirectly addressing things I've said. In fact, there's a lot of willfully ignoring of what I've said, though it's making you no less keen to argue.

The examples people have referenced in this thread of scholarship mismanagement are awful (which I am very happy to presume happened without direct evidence for the sake of discussion). This does not discredit scholarships full stop, or the concept of scholarships. If you've looked, you'll see I've discussed many issues with scholarships here over the last couple of days, there's no wool over my eyes. Though I guess that doesn't suit the strawman you're building.

Oh, and thank you for calling me a lobbyist. Classy and a bit on the nose considering the sides of the opinion divide we're clearly sitting on.

Here's another helpful video:

 

[I like to watch]

It's tosh that the mercenaries receive the benefit of these extra curricular activities,not that the School doesn't provide them.

No you didnt mention the time commitment required from these kids,as it destroys your argument,about what benefits they get from the transaction.
They spend all available hours outside of school hours on a single purpose, no time for any other extra curricular activities.

The examples discussed here do discredit scholarships,even more so,that each of these Schools have agreed not to provide same.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I guess I'd say that's a negative point of a positive experience.

Have you travelled for business or study? What happened to your mates?

Or, to ground it in an youthful experience, what happened to your friends when you switched from primary to secondary school? I imagine you kept some, lost touch with some, and made some new ones.

Though once again, this hedges on the rugby player coming from very far away and not boarding or being given lifts from parents. I'm sure there's examples of it, I just know it's not the majority or entirety of scholarship players.

Don't worry about what happened to me just tell us what the recruit gets out of it.

 

[rollin_maul]

Honestly,you know perfectly well which school I am talking about. Your knowledge of the 2010 season indicates that, despite your attempts to deny it.

The fact you believed ,initially, I was referring to Scots indicates to me a sense of guilt by some of your supporters.Not that Scots should be ashamed of its recruitment policies, as one of your talented players came from a housing commission apartment in Redfern. In this regard I believe Scots should be congratulated in giving this boy a chance to succeed. Other Schools who shall remain nameless, would not have even considered this boy.

However, as with most schools, teenage boys will exhibit arrogance if they excel at something others will not.It depends on the school,coaching culture and ultimately the boys themselves. All schools experience this and Newington in my school days had a number of boys of the 1st XV and the 1st Vlll, who were a bit full of their own self-importance.

The reason I public won't name the school is that the Headmaster, stopped this third party importing by parents. Its now history.

Honestly. I don't know perfectly well which school you were referring to as arrogant imports. And any knowledge you claim I have of the 2010 season has been largely gained from going back through the archives today.

If it is Scots you are referring to, then woopie doop. Hardly original. Wouldn't phase me in the slightest. And I reckon Scots supporters wouldn't give a toss either. Alot worse had been said over the years.

But when you said that this team "failed to beat Newington in a crucial game, that ensured Newington the premiership that year" and didn't name them, I was intrigued to know who you were referring to.

So I looked up the results and my intrigued increased when I noted that Scots (the usual suspects) had lost quite convincingly to Newington in round 3 of 7 (hardly a crucial match being so early in the season) and Scots only went on to win 2 from 7, so they never threatened New on the ladder at any stage. Also New played and won games of far greater significance that did actually have a big impact on the premiership outcome in rounds 5, 6 and 7. And those games weren't against Scots. It's all in the archives, not tucked away in my memory I can assure you.

The closer I looked at the archived results, the more I started to think that you were not accusing Scots of importing. But you were in fact accusing one of the more unlikely candidates of importing. Possibly even a school that has consistently denied such activities.

Now you are saying you won't name the school in public because the Headmaster has now stopped this third party importing by parents.

Fair enough. Sounds like a good call to me actually - regardless of which School it might be.

But next time please think twice before accusing a school of importing if you are not going to name that school and provide concrete evidence to back up your accusation. Better to say nothing at all imo

 

[The Honey Badger]

Bursary?

So Newington are handing out Bursaries to get talented sports boys into the school. Rowers from Kinross and Rugby players from St Augustines. At least this is what is implied in the last 100 posts.

Bit I don't understand, surely Bursaries are for Sons of Old boys, Families associated with the school in some in some dire need, or boys at the school since yr 7 that apply for Merit based Bursary. NOT for latecomers. Thats where yr 11 scholarship positions happen for Scholars.

Surely the good people that donate them want them to be directed at the school community.

Why does the school get away with giving them to Randoms from other good schools. And why to kids with League backgrounds?

Wrong Wrong Wrong,

Thats the Badger rant for today,

 

[Black & White]

Honestly. I don't know perfectly well which school you were referring to as arrogant imports. And any knowledge you claim I have of the 2010 season has been largely gained from going back through the archives today.

If it is Scots you are referring to, then woopie doop. Hardly original. Wouldn't phase me in the slightest. And I reckon Scots supporters wouldn't give a toss either. Alot worse had been said over the years.

But when you said that this team "failed to beat Newington in a crucial game, that ensured Newington the premiership that year" and didn't name them, I was intrigued to know who you were referring to.

So I looked up the results and my intrigued increased when I noted that Scots (the usual suspects) had lost quite convincingly to Newington in round 3 of 7 (hardly a crucial match being so early in the season) and Scots only went on to win 2 from 7, so they never threatened New on the ladder at any stage. Also New played and won games of far greater significance that did actually have a big impact on the premiership outcome in rounds 5, 6 and 7. And those games weren't against Scots. It's all in the archives, not tucked away in my memory I can assure you.

The closer I looked at the archived results, the more I started to think that you were not accusing Scots of importing. But you were in fact accusing one of the more unlikely candidates of importing. Possibly even a school that has consistently denied such activities.

Now you are saying you won't name the school in public because the Headmaster has now stopped this third party importing by parents.

Fair enough. Sounds like a good call to me actually - regardless of which School it might be.

But next time please think twice before accusing a school of importing if you are not going to name that school and provide concrete evidence to back up your accusation. Better to say nothing at all imo[/quote

Rather than lecturing me with a condensing morality, how about you devoid yourself of a the sensitive towards Scots. As suggested be proud of what Scots has achieved in terms opportunities given to boys who would not otherwise enter the school, even if its based on rugby talent as a determinant

All schools get a bit of stick from time to time. Its come with the territory of being part of the GPS. Sometimes we need thick skins on this site, when it comes to comments about the Schools we love and were proud to attend. Its very easy to react impulsively and with passion.

However, I will give you a "leg up" as it seems to be overtly important to you.Look at the number of Australian schoolboys produced in 2010. When you have counted up to the number 8 by a particular school, you will have your answer.

As for my sources they came a Teacher at that school who worked in the PE Department. The other source was a former Australian Schools official who knew these boys and expressed the same sentiment about them.

I trust these details will give satisfaction you seek.



.

 

[The Honey Badger]

AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS TEAM TO TOUR SAMOA & NEW ZEALAND
19 SEPT – 7 OCT 2010
Jumper
First
Surname
School
State
4
Curtis
BROWNING
Brisbane State High School
QLD
7
Tom
CONNOR
The Kings School
NSW
14
Lindsay
CROOK
The Southport School
QLD
5
Steve
CUMMINS (c)
The Hills Sports High School
NSW
6
Tom
CUSACK
Marist College Canberra
ACT
9
Tim
DONLAN
St Ignatius' College
NSW
9
Tim
DUCHESNE
Knox Grammar School
NSW
11
Chris
FEAUAI-SAUTIA
Brisbane State High School
QLD
1
Jed
GILLESPIE
The Kings School
NSW
13
Malietoa
HINGANO
St Augustine's College
NSW
15
Lewis
HOLLAND
St Edmund’s College
ACT
4
Jed
HOLLOWAY
Waverley College
NSW
15
Luke
KEARY *
Oakhill College
NSW
6
Boyd
KILLINGWORTH
The Kings School
NSW
1
Philip
KITE
St Josephs College Nudgee
QLD
12
Apolosi
LATUNIPULU
Newington College
NSW
8
Sioeli-Pulu
LUANI
Newington College
NSW
3
Guy
MILLAR
The Kings School
NSW
1
Gary
NEUGEBAUER
Hale School
WA
2
Maile
NGAUAMO
Ipswich Grammar School
QLD
14
Walter
PETAIA
Brisbane State High School
QLD
4
Sam
REISER
St Joseph’s Gregory Terrace
QLD
2
Hugh
ROACH
Newington College
NSW
10
Dion
TAUMATA
Keebra Park High School
QLD
5
Michael
WELLS
St Ignatius College
NSW
10
Ed
WYLIE
The Kings School
NSW
9
Clinton
DALE #
MacKillop Catholic College
ACT
* Luke Keary was injured in New Zealand and replaced by # Clinton Dale

 

[amirite]

Don't worry about what happened to me just tell us what the recruit gets out of it.

You asked me a question by name and I answered it.

I've said what IMO a scholarship student gets out of it on several occasions in previous posts. Please don't willfully ignore it.

It's tosh that the mercenaries receive the benefit of these extra curricular activities,not that the School doesn't provide them.

No you didnt mention the time commitment required from these kids,as it destroys your argument,about what benefits they get from the transaction.
They spend all available hours outside of school hours on a single purpose, no time for any other extra curricular activities.

The examples discussed here do discredit scholarships,even more so,that each of these Schools have agreed not to provide same.

Rugby runs for 2/3 of the year counting preseason, with perhaps some offseason training. Even presuming you have no time left after that (a big presumption that a lot of points here rest on), there's school holidays and PD activities that take place during traditional school hours.

You're telling me the students get access to none of this? Not only does logic dictate that would, but I guarantee there's not a sporting department at any of these schools that calls the shots over academics or pastoral care. It sounds like this time management is definitely an issue, but you're exaggerating it for effect.

Plus, given these scholarship students play the same amount of rugby as a paying 1st XVer and travel maybe an extra half an hour each direction (presuming they travel 1 hours and the average is 30 minutes), should we say that no kids should be playing sport?

---

What's quite interesting about debating here is most chats I've had about this in real life have been about how scholarships ruin the experience of paying students by taking their spots at the school and their 1st XV spots, whilst also ruining the competitiveness of the sporting league.

What's being argued here is generally more around 'it's worse for the student'. Even taking the popular definition of holistic education out (because people literally don't believe it), how could better teachers, resources, and, in a cringey way, networking not be a net positive for an individual?

The quality of education, and the social mobility, that these scholarships provide aren't represented by scores or tertiary admittance, it's represented by so much more. This isn't about expecting a lower-SES sports scholarship to get a 90+ ATAR, but it's just about them beating their hypothetical self that didn't take the scholarship.

 

[Black & White]

AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS TEAM TO TOUR SAMOA & NEW ZEALAND
19 SEPT – 7 OCT 2010
Jumper
First
Surname
School
State
4
Curtis
BROWNING
Brisbane State High School
QLD
7
Tom
CONNOR
The Kings School
NSW
14
Lindsay
CROOK
The Southport School
QLD
5
Steve
CUMMINS (c)
The Hills Sports High School
NSW
6
Tom
CUSACK
Marist College Canberra
ACT
9
Tim
DONLAN
St Ignatius' College
NSW
9
Tim
DUCHESNE
Knox Grammar School
NSW
11
Chris
FEAUAI-SAUTIA
Brisbane State High School
QLD
1
Jed
GILLESPIE
The Kings School
NSW
13
Malietoa
HINGANO
St Augustine's College
NSW
15
Lewis
HOLLAND
St Edmund’s College
ACT
4
Jed
HOLLOWAY
Waverley College
NSW
15
Luke
KEARY *
Oakhill College
NSW
6
Boyd
KILLINGWORTH
The Kings School
NSW
1
Philip
KITE
St Josephs College Nudgee
QLD
12
Apolosi
LATUNIPULU
Newington College
NSW
8
Sioeli-Pulu
LUANI
Newington College
NSW
3
Guy
MILLAR
The Kings School
NSW
1
Gary
NEUGEBAUER
Hale School
WA
2
Maile
NGAUAMO
Ipswich Grammar School
QLD
14
Walter
PETAIA
Brisbane State High School
QLD
4
Sam
REISER
St Joseph’s Gregory Terrace
QLD
2
Hugh
ROACH
Newington College
NSW
10
Dion
TAUMATA
Keebra Park High School
QLD
5
Michael
WELLS
St Ignatius College
NSW
10
Ed
WYLIE
The Kings School
NSW
9
Clinton
DALE #
MacKillop Catholic College
ACT
* Luke Keary was injured in New Zealand and replaced by # Clinton Dale

Thanks Honey Badger, I counted 5 so i might have been out by three.

 

[rollin_maul]

@B&W

Thanks for fessing up. Thought that might of been the school you were referring to based on the seasons results. And I am surprised to hear that as I didn't think that school participated in such activities.

Yes I am a Scots support. But i could tell from the get go that you weren't referring to Scots and i made that crystal clear. And in knowing you weren't referring to Scots I didn't feel like I had anything to defend in what you said, let alone feel sensitive about.

I am very proud of what Scots has achieved. But along with New, Scots has been the target of most of the negative comments made in this thread.

And what frustrates me is that most of the noise has been made by supporters from a handful of schools that are doing the same sort of thing and denying it.

So when I got an inkling that you were suggesting a school other than Scots or New comprised arrogantB imports, I was very eager for you to reveal who you thought that was.

That you have done and in doing so, you have confirmed my suspicion that this whole debate has been riddled with hypocrisy and very poor transparency. Cheers

PS I'm not sure whether you actually realise this, but I am on your side on this issue mate.

 

[Not in straight]

NEWS FROM SCOTS

Apparently the cessation of Rugby scholarships has led to a massive increase in Revenue to the Presbyterian Church, so much so that new funds are being diverted to the poor cousin at Bathurst.

Scots Bathurst now a low fee school with a 30% reduction across the board.

THE SCOTS SCHOOL Bathurst and Lithgow
MEDIA RELEASE
1st December, 2016
It was announced this week that The Scots School has decided to reduce tuition fees for 2017 by an average of 30%. Headmaster, David Gates, has informed parents and staff that this decision has been made following extensive consideration over a significant period of time. The school is strategically positioning itself in the educational landscape of the Central West. The fee restructure is possible due to many years of outstanding financial management and the fact that the school is free of debt.
“The fee restructure positions the school to continue to provide a quality education at a level more affordable to a greater range of families living in Bathurst and regional centres across the Central West. The School will continue to offer the range of learning and co-curricular opportunities that make us unique,” Mr Gates said.
In recent years the School has embarked on a program of building new facilities, including a solar-heated indoor pool and a performing arts centre. As part of the commemorations of the 70th anniversary of the establishment of the school in Bathurst, a new pavilion was opened in March 2016 to accommodate additional learning space, educational conferences, and sports functions. All of these facilities are free of debt and the school is looking at further developments in the years ahead.
“I am excited by the possibilities of future development that this fee restructure brings.” said Mr Gates.
The Enrolments and Promotions Officer, Mrs Lynda Ireland states “There are places available for 2017 and we welcome any families who would like to discuss enrolling for next year.”
For more information about The Scots School and the new fees, please visit www.scots.nsw.edu.au or call 6331 2766.
END
Headmaster, Mr David Gates welcomes interviews about this. Please contact Mrs Lynda Ireland on 63312766 or 0428 620693
The Scots School 4173 O’Connell Road BATHURST NSW 2795 Ph: 63312766 scots@scots.nsw.edu.au

 

[amirite]

That's interesting and positive.

The constant creep upward in cost at Sydney/Melbourne private schools is a worry. In some sense private schools are businesses, but they have a social mission to educate. So, really they're closer to being a 'social enterprise', at which point 'impact' and not money is the main goal.

 

[RonnyGibbs]

Thanks Honey Badger, I counted 5 so i might have been out by three.

There we three others in the second Australia schools side

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You asked me a question by name and I answered it.

I've said what IMO a scholarship student gets out of it on several occasions in previous posts. Please don't willfully ignore it.

You take yourself just a little too seriously, so i underwent the mind numbing experience of re-reading all your posts in this thread.
I found on ly 2 that could even remotely be said to identify what you say the recipient gains from the scholarship:

I don't really see how an out-of-area student won't benefit from a holistic educational experience. They still have the same strengths-based, values-centric education, they might just miss an out of hours extra-curricular here and there because they have to get the bus home.

1) How are good habits and life structure bad? Getting up early, looking after yourself physically, etc.
2) Why can a fee paying 1st XVer cop this life structure but not a dreaded scholarshiper? Yes, the 'out of area' point, but otherwise.

Other posts repeated this "holistic educational experience" mantra. i don't know if that is a term of art and/or it means what you want it to mean but if thats what you say someone get out a scholarship experience its devoid of practical content and, as the posters have tried to point out to you, they actually miss out on the holistic experience because they dip their toes into only one aspect of school life and are not required to do otherwise. Studies won't trump anecdote where the whole point is the way in which particular institutions confer and administer scholarships.

Safe to say you are mighty short on even major detail of these supposed benefits if this is the extent of it.

The upshot is that i cannot identify by reading your posts what it is you think the recipient gets out of the deal: I doubt anyone can.

You can tell us or keep trotting out cliches.

 

[amirite]

IS, what's with the personal attacks? It takes two to tango, and if I take myself 'a little too seriously', well that's a pot calling the kettle black.

Frankly, I think this vitriol you use against people that disagree with you on a discussion forum is classless.

When I use the term 'holistic education' I'm pointing to the breadth of what one can learn from a private school. This is because others were pointing to tertiary admittance and enters being low amongst scholarshipees.

I've explained how I don't believe they get zero access to the community engagement, community/civil service activities, speakers, etc. that these schools offer because a lot of them are in school hours, the rugby season doesn't run all year, and the pastoral care and academic parts of the school simply wouldn't allow it.

Additionally, if these rugby programs ask a disgusting amount of students, and maybe they do, why is this a scholarship issue? Isn't this a school sporting issue? The rage should be channelled elsewhere.

You question what value a scholarship student receives, and I've said a better educational experience (both academically and 'holistically') and a better rugby experience. But let's not let you or I decide if the value is there, let's look to the students. If the value proposition wasn't there for scholarshipees, why do so many people take them? These students that take scholarships aren't anomalies.

TL ; DR - I've tried at length to empathise with particular points the anti-scholarship crew have made and explain myself thoroughly (as per the long posts). I've been met with strawman arguments and insults. Thanks.

 

[amirite]

If you like I'll stop using the term 'holistic education' and start calling it 'personal development', I'm not married to the wording.

 

[Black & White]

@B&W

Thanks for fessing up. Thought that might of been the school you were referring to based on the seasons results. And I am surprised to hear that as I didn't think that school participated in such activities.

Yes I am a Scots support. But i could tell from the get go that you weren't referring to Scots and i made that crystal clear. And in knowing you weren't referring to Scots I didn't feel like I had anything to defend in what you said, let alone feel sensitive about.

I am very proud of what Scots has achieved. But along with New, Scots has been the target of most of the negative comments made in this thread.

And what frustrates me is that most of the noise has been made by supporters from a handful of schools that are doing the same sort of thing and denying it.

So when I got an inkling that you were suggesting a school other than Scots or New comprised arrogantB imports, I was very eager for you to reveal who you thought that was.

That you have done and in doing so, you have confirmed my suspicion that this whole debate has been riddled with hypocrisy and very poor transparency. Cheers
Thanks for your support, I very much against " dumping a bucket" on any one school ,particularly, as that school resolved the issue. As for New and Scots getting "dumped on" it stems in my opinion from the rebalancing of rugby power within the GPS System. Scots and Newington are now forces to be reckon with as a rule in their " A Teams". As well as their 1st and 2nd XVs. This has annoyed some of the supporters of the traditional rugby powerhouses. With one school at times being somewhat racist to our Pacific Islander boys ( Please don't ask me to name the school). However, to that school's credit,however, their Headmaster has cautioned their boys about such comments.

In my view, this rebalancing and evening out of the competition, is to the benefit of all the GPS as a whole. As last year's competition saw brilliant efforts from all 6 schools. Its a pity that it has changed

PS I'm not sure whether you actually realise this, but I am on your side on this issue mate.