School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Armchair Selector]

I suspect self interest will always trump social good. Remarkable how many times players miraculously appear in schools (bursary or not) to fill positions in a firsts team where there has been a talent gap

 

[RonnyGibbs]

I suspect self interest will always trump social good. Remarkable how many times players miraculously appear in schools (bursary or not) to fill positions in a firsts team where there has been a talent gap

Agreed!

 

[rollin_maul]

IRemarkable how many times players miraculously appear in schools (bursary or not) to fill positions in a firsts team where there has been a talent gap

It's also remarkable how players miraculously appear in schools (bursary or not) when the firsts are already loaded with players of high ability in certain positions. I'm thinking here if the new arrivals at View and Joeys earlier this year, where both back lines were already chock full of stars.

 

[Tahs247]

GPS schools have been buying in players for years, but now we are seeing it in the CAS system. Barker had a number of new arrivals this year and i'm hearing a few more for the next. Trinity are very much like Newington with their recruitment strategies. A few Tongan and Fijians every now and again. Don't think Waverley and Knox allow "Sporting schoolarships" but i'm sure it's all under the table.

 

[Black & White]

Although I can understand the Code of Practice but it belongs to a bygone era that has now past us by.Hence, its relevance in the 21st Century must be called into question. In the UK Professional sports academies exist for Rugby Union. Their existence and performance have elevated English U/20 and schoolboy Rugby to new heights. After all when was the last time an Australian Schoolboy side beat an England Schoolboy side. The same question can be asked of our U/20s against England.

Again, using the example of QLD GPS, apart from the schools I previously mentioned others include Ipswich Grammar, A school of 13 teams, yet hold their own as a rule against larger Rugby playing schools. Brisbane Boys College once the easy beats of QLD GPS now exist as formidable opponents.But above all Brisbane State High really show the direction, that own Sydney Boys High School should have taken. State High were the GPS Premiers this year. We must also remember that State High is Co-Eductional so their recruitment policy allows a numerical smaller school not just to survive, but to thrive as a Rugby playing School. One can only wonder, how much stronger Sydney High would be, if the State Government permitted them to recruit in the way Brisbane State High does. Certainly, GPS Rugby here would be stronger and sequently NSW Schoolboy Rugby.

Our game is professional at the National Level and recruits accordingly, as at the Super Level, the National Championship level and even at Club level. Look at Sydney University and how they now monopolise talent, through their professional recruitment policies.

So we can live in the past with its 19th Century concepts of amateur practice and watch more professional codes overtake us at the schoolboy level. Or we can avoid extinction and adapt. Gentlemen, the Asteroid has hit do we follow the path of the Dinosaurs or do we evolve with the times. Some schools here in Sydney and most certainly in Brisbane have adapted. The question is whether other schools look forward to our Brave New World.

 

[I like to watch]

^^^^^ you think any Schools raison d'être is to produce future pro Rugby players?

 

[Black & White]

^^^^^ you think any Schools raison d'être is to produce future pro Rugby players?

Clearly, some do and further scholarship and sportsmanship can exist together. Research has shown that there is a strong correlation between academic success and sporting success. As the personal qualities that ensure success in both are quite similar. Self-dicipline, high levels of motivation, good organisation and attention to detail are reflected in such high achievers.

There is a belief that the GPS Rugby does not exist for the benefit of ARU. But they are encouraging talented boys to gain entry to elite training environments. If that means a particular GPS school then its already happening.

 

[I like to watch]

That research has obviously excluded rugby scholarship recipients at your school

Further, it only confirms that the recruitment program is effective.
The actual program, fails to improve them at all.
The glaring defiencies that were evident at recruitment,are still there after 3-4 years of intensive training.

I can quote a 9 that started games for the 1st XV in year 9 that finished the program 4 years later that could still only pass one side.
Or a 12 that was physically dominant that still read it like Braille,or a 13 that was also physically dominant as a 15yo with no other skills when he left.

None of these kids received anything from this School, other than a contact list for possible employment once their dreams of being a pro footballer disappear.

 

[Black & White]

That research has obviously excluded rugby scholarship recipients at your school

Further, it only confirms that the recruitment program is effective.
The actual program, fails to improve them at all.
The glaring defiencies that were evident at recruitment,are still there after 3-4 years of intensive training.

I can quote a 9 that started games for the 1st XV in year 9 that finished the program 4 years later that could still only pass one side.
Or a 12 that was physically dominant that still read it like Braille,or a 13 that was also physically dominant as a 15yo with no other skills when he left.

None of these kids received anything from this School, other than a contact list for possible employment once their dreams of being a pro footballer disappear.

Clearly, your perspective is one of immense disappointment and even bitterness. Others have thrived and gone onto to greater things. This disappointment I suspect is born out of experience from one specific school. Name the school and there lies the problem, as I suspect that school will be characterised by failed leadership and a morally corrupt environment that uses these boys as " Rugby Playing Meat".

Additionally, the boys themselves must be held accountable and did they take full measure of the opportunities offered to them at that particular school.
Sometimes, the belief they are on a scholarship gives them a arrogant superior attitude. I know this happened at one GPS School in 2010 where the talent was a most unpleasant group of boys to coach. Their attitude ensured that they failed to beat Newington in a crucial game, that ensured Newington the premiership that year

 

[amirite]

I like to watch, you're getting into a territory where you're fighting studies with anecdotes of people you've spoken too. This is a little problematic.

 

[rollin_maul]

Sometimes, the belief they are on a scholarship gives them a arrogant superior attitude. I know this happened at one GPS School in 2010 where the talent was a most unpleasant group of boys to coach. Their attitude ensured that they failed to beat Newington in a crucial game, that ensured Newington the premiership that year

Which team was that @B&W. I had assumed it would be Scots because that's the sort of accusation so frequently flung at them. But a look back in the archives shows Scots only won 2 games that year and Newington won all six. And Scots lost to New as early as round 3, so hardly a match at a critical stage in the season.

So who was this team full of arrogant imports?

 

[I like to watch]

I like to watch, you're getting into a territory where you're fighting studies with anecdotes of people you've spoken too. This is a little problematic.

What studies?
What's problematic, is assuming that out of area sports scholarship kids get anywhere near the same academic results as the fee paying locals.
You clearly don't understand the load the School places on these kids.
Up at 6 then home at 8 mon to Thursday , game day Saturday, compulsory recovery session Sunday.
There is no time for school work.

 

[amirite]

I'll address this point-by-point because I think you're being unfair in part.

There's a few 'logical fallacies' you've used, deliberately or not, and it's just not a great way to debate an issue.

What studies?

B&W said: "Research has shown that there is a strong correlation between academic success and sporting success."
You countered with: "I can quote a 9 that started games for the 1st XV in year 9 that finished the program 4 years later that could still only pass one side." Note: there were also more anecdotes.

Now, saying "please cite the studies" would have been a perfectly fair thing to say, but seeing as you didn't say that it's in Studies V Anecdotes territory.

What's problematic, is assuming that out of area sports scholarship kids get anywhere near the same academic results as the fee paying locals.

Nobody ever said "out of area sports scholarship kids get anywhere near the same academic results as the fee paying locals", this is heavily moving the goalposts of the discussion.

What was said is:
1) Education is holistic, there are other benefits than scores, tertiary, and even jobs.
2) It's not about scholarship students beating a fee payer, it's about them beating where they would have otherwise been. This gives a lower SES individual due to circumstance WAY more life opportunity.

In addition, you keep linking back to 'out of area'. Not all scholarships are 'out of area', and the ones that are often board or make it work. You're generalising here, I suspect based on anecdotes and confirmation bias.

You clearly don't understand the load the School places on these kids.
Up at 6 then home at 8 mon to Thursday , game day Saturday, compulsory recovery session Sunday.
There is no time for school work.

Presuming I don't understand what a school asks of the students is pretty self-defeating, because I do. Trying to establish yourself as an authority by saying "obviously you don't agree because you don't understand" is a frustrating way to argue.

Adding to the points about 'out of area' students:
1) How are good habits and life structure bad? Getting up early, looking after yourself physically, etc.
2) Why can a fee paying 1st XVer cop this life structure but not a dreaded scholarshiper? Yes, the 'out of area' point, but otherwise.

 

[I like to watch]

1)you keep banging on about holistic education, like its the secret sauce.
repeating it,doesn't make it valid.
2)on what basis do you suggest adding 20 + hours per week in training and travel gives them a leg up, from their previous Schooling?
I call bullshit on your lower SES claims.
Firstly,they recruit plenty of kids from other private schools, secondly,you can't claim a superior education outcome based on the vibe.
on what basis do you assert not all all scholarships are out of area?

 

[amirite]

1)you keep banging on about holistic education, like its the secret sauce.
repeating it,doesn't make it valid.

I don't understand, are you saying the educational experience is purely academic?

I don't think there's a school worth its salt that thinks this way. In fact, I don't think there's any school that thinks this way, though that's not saying all are successful.

2)on what basis do you suggest adding 20 + hours per week in training and travel gives them a leg up, from their previous Schooling?

I didn't directly suggest this, there are things I directly suggested but you didn't reference them.

I call bullshit on your lower SES claims.

On what basis? A look at the average financial situation of the PI community shows that this must be the case for at least some scholarships.

Are you saying scholarship students are genuinely wealthy enough to afford the school the attend?

Firstly,they recruit plenty of kids from other private schools, secondly,you can't claim a superior education outcome based on the vibe.

I'm sure there's some, but once again anecdotal. I am not saying your experience didn't happen, but I am saying 1, 2 or even 20 conversations is not a consensus. After all, we all role in particular circles.

I'd also add, as I suggested above, most of these scholarships are conditional on financial situation. It's written on the scholarship page of every school. Are they all lying?

I didn't say anything about 'vibe', I actually went to great length to try to explain my point.

on what basis do you assert not all all scholarships are out of area?

I don't understand, are you implying all scholarships are out of area? That's an interesting claim.

I don't think it could possible be true, unless to you an area is a suburb or two, but I'd say many paying students would travel that distance.

Anyway, I actually went to a lot of effort to address things specifically and you ignored it and just moved the goal posts again. Maybe I'm giving this discussion too much respect

 

[I like to watch]

My bad for getting sucked into this thread again.

i really can't be bothered debating the finer points about travelling times etc.

Anyone can see where these kids went to School before being recruited.

Everyone can see the vast majority don't go on to tertiary studies (in direct contrast to their school mates) which tells me they are not getting the same holistic experience

 

[amirite]

My bad for getting sucked into this thread again.

i really can't be bothered debating the finer points about travelling times etc.

Anyone can see where these kids went to School before being recruited.

Everyone can see the vast majority don't go on to tertiary studies (in direct contrast to their school mates) which tells me they are not getting the same holistic experience

You're just playing with definitions and moving the goal posts like I said. Here's a video that might help you see what I mean:

To throw a definition at you "Holistic education is a philosophy of education based on the premise that each person finds identity, meaning, and purpose in life through connections to the community, to the natural world, and to humanitarian values such as compassion and peace." That's from Wikipedia, so not perfect but certainly a conversation point.

This definition could not be measured by tertiary admittance/completion.

I'll add that your idea that tertiary education is the key metric of success is extraordinarily elitist, and I study.

Edit: This comic also made me laugh and is somewhat relevant.

 

[Black & White]

Which team was that @B&W. I had assumed it would be Scots because that's the sort of accusation so frequently flung at them. But a look back in the archives shows Scots only won 2 games that year and Newington won all six. And Scots lost to New as early as round 3, so hardly a match at a critical stage in the season.

So who was this team full of arrogant imports?

Clearly you know your GPS Rugby History so you don't need any assistance from me to point out the school.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Hey, amirite: what do you say the recruit gets out of leaving his mates and spending half his time travelling?

 

[amirite]

Hey, amirite: what do you say the recruit gets out of leaving his mates and spending half his time travelling?

I guess I'd say that's a negative point of a positive experience.

Have you travelled for business or study? What happened to your mates?

Or, to ground it in an youthful experience, what happened to your friends when you switched from primary to secondary school? I imagine you kept some, lost touch with some, and made some new ones.

Though once again, this hedges on the rugby player coming from very far away and not boarding or being given lifts from parents. I'm sure there's examples of it, I just know it's not the majority or entirety of scholarship players.