School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[bigmac]

A simple and effective solution would be for the GPS to agree that students contracted to an NRL Club or have played a rugby league game for an NRL club in the preceding calendar year cannot participate in the GPS rugby union competition. (The above players were contracted to NRL clubs whilst at school)

How you can participate in the wider activities, ideals and aims of the school while contracted to a NRL Club I do not know. Also if you play for an NRL club you have certain opportunities open to you and not necessarily in the greatest need of a scholarship / bursary. Also the choice can be theirs educational opportunity over NRL contract.

Whilst not a complete solution to the scholarship issues, where scholarship and bursaries are a grey area, having an NRL contract is clear cut, it will go some way to leveling the playing field and score blow outs.

I know some may disagree with the above, but how many contracted NRL kids (while at school) have played rugby after leaving school, I can't think of any.

Agree that nrl contracted players running around in gps sends a warped message.
I knew SBH kids who played for 1st xv on saturday and south sydney juniors on sunday.but strictly amateur.

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[Inside Shoulder]

i am OSU 93
I knew sons of old boys in the prep school who were marginal. Some stayed on some left for shore kings etc. I thought old boys got preference but maybe wrong.
Laurie F told me about the coaching issue. he was hired to set up the entrance exam and weed out the coached kids.
you are being modest with your son's sporting achievements. A standout player with a big future in rugby.

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Forget the exam, Laurie would have other means of sorting them out, of which I approve.
When I was at school I was told he could do 100 dips on the parallel bars. I saw him doing them but I didn't count how many.
Favourite coach I ever had.

 

[cyclopath]

As an old boy myself i was looking at grammar for my two sons. So no dispensation to old boys when getting their son in? This is a change in previous policy.

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It has been this way for quite some time, I believe.

 

[Black & White]

A simple and effective solution would be for the GPS to agree that students contracted to an NRL Club or have played a rugby league game for an NRL club in the preceding calendar year cannot participate in the GPS rugby union competition. (The above players were contracted to NRL clubs whilst at school)

How you can participate in the wider activities, ideals and aims of the school while contracted to a NRL Club I do not know. Also if you play for an NRL club you have certain opportunities open to you and not necessarily in the greatest need of a scholarship / bursary. Also the choice can be theirs educational opportunity over NRL contract.

Whilst not a complete solution to the scholarship issues, where scholarship and bursaries are a grey area, having an NRL contract is clear cut, it will go some way to leveling the playing field and score blow outs.

I know some may disagree with the above, but how many contracted NRL kids (while at school) have played rugby after leaving school, I can't think of any.

I admire your purity to the GPS spirt of sport, but the reality is very different from the idealism you stress. Self-interest is the what your up against and no GPS school is going to disassociated itself from the "Dark Side" if it brings in talent,size and strength into the playing ranks of its elite teams.

Shore clearly doesn't and it plays the price every year, for its idealism you advocate. Brisbane Grammar had a similar ideal about amateurism and no scholarships and it paid the price as perennial non-achieviers in their GPS Competition. Come 2017, the acquisition by Brisbane Grammar of a number of talented backs has seen their fortunes change.

In Sydney it is one school against 5, although Newington and Scots probably have embraced the the Dark Side more than the others at the moment.No one at these two schools is crying for a return to mediocre of past results of ten years agn the contrary, accommodation has been made with the "Dark Side" and it will not only continue, but will get stronger in the future.

If a solution exists, it is the ARU taking a greater role in recruiting and contracting these talent players, in order to keep them within the ranks of Rugby. I was watching the Kings/Newington 15As this year, and a Kings parent pointed out to me, that one of their players was already contracted to Parramatta NRL.

Although won by Kings, 17-12, I have no complaints, how they acquired such a player. Nor do I complain about the TKS 14As and how they acquired a brilliant player who I believe, now plays Basketball 1sts. Even though they thrashed Newington 14As 65-5. I have nothing but admiration for the skill of TKS selectors, in identifying and acquiring this outstanding young player.

Here the ARU should be working overtime to keep such outstanding players in the game. By recruiting from the ranks of League, we have an opportunity to strengthen our game at the expense of league. The problem is not having Rugby League juniors playing GPS Rugby, but keeping them in Rugby after they leave school.
.
Also,simply put too many GPS Schools and we must also include, St.Augustines and I also suspect Waverly have too much to lose with any attempt to restrict, block or exclude players with league commitments or backgrounds.

So rather than see their presence as a negative to be regulated. We must embrace their presence, give them the opportunities that a GPS school can offer, that extents beyond Rugby. But above all secure for these boys, a path towards their development as Elite Rugby Players in the making. The standard of our Schoolboy Rugby will improve and ideally with these boys being kept in the game,ultimately Australian Rugby.

However, I suspect that some of you on this site, will find such a view of being one, with the "Dark Side" simply too emotionally repugnant, too socially uncomfortable and too threatening to a traditional interpretation of what constitutes acceptable GPS Schoolboy Rugby.

To which I reply "Stop thinking about Tom Brown's School Days at Rugby School or Baden Powell and the Boy Scouts. Rather, pick up Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince" for if we are to defeat the "Dark Side" the answer lies there, as well as Sun Tzu's "Art of War".

"Know your enemy, better than yourself and you shall win the battles you must fight."

Sun Tzu, Chinese General about 500 BC

"The Ends justifies the Means"

Niccolo Machiavelli Renaissance era (16th Century,Florence) writer and adviser, to the Medici Family in their Business, Political and Military affairs.

 

[The Honey Badger]

So Kings import a monster 15 year old League player from Mt Druitt, and you think that's ok?

Are You are aware of the sporting Code of Practice all AAGPS schools have agreed and signed?

It's wrong and Shore are right to call them out and refuse to play them.

You do you mean the Means justifies the End? (think that is arse about)

It's game of sport, not even part of any official competition.

Why should any team have play against a deliberately stacked team? Where the result is going to be a thrashing at best or some kid seriously injured at worst.

Black and white get a grip on it. How about promoting a fair contest between young boys.

 

[WLF]

I admire your purity to the GPS spirt of sport, but the reality is very different from the idealism you stress. Self-interest is the what your up against and no GPS school is going to disassociated itself from the "Dark Side" if it brings in talent,size and strength into the playing ranks of its elite teams.

Shore clearly doesn't and it plays the price every year, for its idealism you advocate. Brisbane Grammar had a similar ideal about amateurism and no scholarships and it paid the price as perennial non-achieviers in their GPS Competition. Come 2017, the acquisition by Brisbane Grammar of a number of talented backs has seen their fortunes change.

In Sydney it is one school against 5, although Newington and Scots probably have embraced the the Dark Side more than the others at the moment.No one at these two schools is crying for a return to mediocre of past results of ten years agn the contrary, accommodation has been made with the "Dark Side" and it will not only continue, but will get stronger in the future.

If a solution exists, it is the ARU taking a greater role in recruiting and contracting these talent players, in order to keep them within the ranks of Rugby. I was watching the Kings/Newington 15As this year, and a Kings parent pointed out to me, that one of their players was already contracted to Parramatta NRL.

Although won by Kings, 17-12, I have no complaints, how they acquired such a player. Nor do I complain about the TKS 14As and how they acquired a brilliant player who I believe, now plays Basketball 1sts. Even though they thrashed Newington 14As 65-5. I have nothing but admiration for the skill of TKS selectors, in identifying and acquiring this outstanding young player.

Here the ARU should be working overtime to keep such outstanding players in the game. By recruiting from the ranks of League, we have an opportunity to strengthen our game at the expense of league. The problem is not having Rugby League juniors playing GPS Rugby, but keeping them in Rugby after they leave school.
.
Also,simply put too many GPS Schools and we must also include, St.Augustines and I also suspect Waverly have too much to lose with any attempt to restrict, block or exclude players with league commitments or backgrounds.

So rather than see their presence as a negative to be regulated. We must embrace their presence, give them the opportunities that a GPS school can offer, that extents beyond Rugby. But above all secure for these boys, a path towards their development as Elite Rugby Players in the making. The standard of our Schoolboy Rugby will improve and ideally with these boys being kept in the game,ultimately Australian Rugby.

However, I suspect that some of you on this site, will find such a view of being one, with the "Dark Side" simply too emotionally repugnant, too socially uncomfortable and too threatening to a traditional interpretation of what constitutes acceptable GPS Schoolboy Rugby.

To which I reply "Stop thinking about Tom Brown's School Days at Rugby School or Baden Powell and the Boy Scouts. Rather, pick up Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince" for if we are to defeat the "Dark Side" the answer lies there, as well as Sun Tzu's "Art of War".

"Know your enemy, better than yourself and you shall win the battles you must fight."

Sun Tzu, Chinese General about 500 BC

"The Ends justifies the Means"

Niccolo Machiavelli Renaissance era (16th Century,Florence) writer and adviser, to the Medici Family in their Business, Political and Military affairs.

WOW B & W,

1 of the best written forward thinking pieces I have read on G&G. I am sure you know my view on the need for change and your summation is terrific.

There is a way to win this war!

 

[WLF]

So Kings import a monster 15 year old League player from Mt Druitt, and you think that's ok?

Are You are aware of the sporting Code of Practice all AAGPS schools have agreed and signed?

It's wrong and Shore are right to call them out and refuse to play them.

You do you mean the Means justifies the End? (think that is arse about)

It's game of sport, not even part of any official competition.

Why should any team have play against a deliberately stacked team? Where the result is going to be a thrashing at best or some kid seriously injured at worst.

Black and white get a grip on it. How about promoting a fair contest between young boys.

HB,

I think everyone would probably agree with you re stacking/unfairness etc but I think those days are unfortunately over, holding on to the old days will only play into the hands of the other sports.

So maybe sporting codes need to be reviewed, or modified to adapt.

For what its worth my boy also played in the Waverley team 14as v TKS, against the most talented young athlete I have ever seen, and we lost 26-12. But I feel as all the other boys grow things will become more even over the years, and a good team can prevail.

Anyway we either choose to "play the game" or get swallowed up, which is currently happening.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Oh, and the last 10 years or so have played out so well for School rugby?

The imports have helped the game to flourish?

 

[WLF]

Oh, and the last 10 years or so have played out so well for School rugby?

The imports have helped the game to flourish?

I am not disagreeing with you just stating that this probably won't change, and I suspect there are many more things that have effected school rugby over the last 10 years more than just imports, eg grass roots growth at the very junior level.

 

[Black & White]

Hello HB
I all ways knew that member's on this site would disagree and profoundly,at that with what I believe should be a the future direction of our game. But its not just the direction, its the survival of our game. The Dark Side will have a "Take no Prisoners attitude" Australian Rules is even more ruthless and publicly denergate our game as "Bum Stiffing" in the Melbourne Media. Soccer sells itself as the World Game and the Beautiful Game.

Quiet simply our game is under attack, it faces extinction and although the Shore approach is a wonderful,beautiful amateur approach its a product of a bygone era that has been laid to rest, at the National Level, Super Rugby Level, Club level and as stated, by many Schools, particularly the Queensland GPS Association. We must move on for the sake of the Game, HB, or you will be watching soccer from the Hawker Stand at Shore.

So if that means GPS should now evolve into an American College Football System, we should embrace it, welcome it and above all enjoy it, for the higher standards it will bring to our game. Yes, it is but one means to counter the overwhelming dominance of NZ Rugby. But its start, which should now be extended to the Sports High Schools and a Club structure more similar to that of league juniors, throughout NSW.

Equally, those schools that enjoy their Rugby as a amateur game, devoid of any connection with the "Dark Side" should continue in an amateur association. In this regard I believe schools such as a Shore can truly enjoy their Rugby amongst like minded Schools.

Equally, the competitive Rugby Schools with their scholarship intake, televised matches and professional preparation would have their own place in the Rugby Sun. A limited association with the Best NZ Schools should also be considered involving, 1st XV and 2nd XVs. With many of our competitive schools playing against the best NZ schools, we can expect our standards of play to lift, with a flow to our senior. level. .

HB, think of the Dinosaurs when the Asteroid hit the Earth 65 million years. They became extinct for their failure to adopt, that would have ensured their survival. That fate now awaits Australian Rugby, but unlike the Dinosaurs, we can be master's of our fate if we choose do so.

I choose a course of direction whereby Rugby, not just Schoolboy Rugby will survive and thrive, with the long term objective of becoming the number one National Football Game for winter. It may take decades, but that should be our long objective objective. That is a future worth believing in, its a future worth planning for. Even if we must be utterly ruthless with Rugby League, by taking their best junior players and reducing their game to an obscure, mediocre sport that barely rates a mention. Nicole Machiavelli would approve of our "Ends justify the Means".

 

[WLF]

Hello HB
I all ways knew that member's on this site would disagree and profoundly,at that with what I believe should be a the future direction of our game. But its not just the direction, its the survival of our game. The Dark Side will have a "Take no Prisoners attitude" Australian Rules is even more ruthless and publicly denergate our game as "Bum Stiffing" in the Melbourne Media. Soccer sells itself as the World Game and the Beautiful Game.

Quiet simply our game is under attack, it faces extinction and although the Shore approach is a wonderful,beautiful amateur approach its a product of a bygone era that has been laid to rest, at the National Level, Super Rugby Level, Club level and as stated, by many Schools, particularly the Queensland GPS Association. We must move on for the sake of the Game, HB, or you will be watching soccer from the Hawker Stand at Shore.

So if that means GPS should now evolve into an American College Football System, we should embrace it, welcome it and above all enjoy it, for the higher standards it will bring to our game. Yes, it is but one means to counter the overwhelming dominance of NZ Rugby. But its start, which should now be extended to the Sports High Schools and a Club structure more similar to that of league juniors, throughout NSW.

Equally, those schools that enjoy their Rugby as a amateur game, devoid of any connection with the "Dark Side" should continue in an amateur association. In this regard I believe schools such as a Shore can truly enjoy their Rugby amongst like minded Schools.

Equally, the competitive Rugby Schools with their scholarship intake, televised matches and professional preparation would have their own place in the Rugby Sun. A limited association with the Best NZ Schools should also be considered involving, 1st XV and 2nd XVs. With many of our competitive schools playing against the best NZ schools, we can expect our standards of play to lift, with a flow to our senior. level. .

HB, think of the Dinosaurs when the Asteroid hit the Earth 65 million years. They became extinct for their failure to adopt, that would have ensured their survival. That fate now awaits Australian Rugby, but unlike the Dinosaurs, we can be master's of our fate if we choose do so.

I choose a course of direction whereby Rugby, not just Schoolboy Rugby will survive and thrive, with the long objective of becoming the number one National Football Game for winter. It may take decades, but that should be our long objective objective. That is a future worth believing in, its a future worth planning for. Even if we must be utterly ruthless with Rugby League, by taking their best junior players and reducing their game to an obscure, mediocre sport that barely rates a mention. Nicole Machiavelli would approve of our "Ends justify the Means".

YEP whilst it's a sport,to survive it must think like a business.

 

[sidelineview]

Black & White said:

I admire your purity to the GPS spirt of sport, but the reality is very different from the idealism you stress. Self-interest is the what your up against and no GPS school is going to disassociated itself from the "Dark Side" if it brings in talent,size and strength into the playing ranks of its elite teams.....

If a solution exists, it is the ARU taking a greater role in recruiting and contracting these talent players, in order to keep them within the ranks of Rugby......

Here the ARU should be working overtime to keep such outstanding players in the game. By recruiting from the ranks of League, we have an opportunity to strengthen our game at the expense of league. The problem is not having Rugby League juniors playing GPS Rugby, but keeping them in Rugby after they leave school.
.
Also,simply put too many GPS Schools and we must also include, St.Augustines and I also suspect Waverly have too much to lose with any attempt to restrict, block or exclude players with league commitments or backgrounds......

So rather than see their presence as a negative to be regulated. We must embrace their presence, give them the opportunities that a GPS school can offer, that extents beyond Rugby. But above all secure for these boys, a path towards their development as Elite Rugby Players in the making. The standard of our Schoolboy Rugby will improve and ideally with these boys being kept in the game,ultimately Australian Rugby........

Well said Black & White,

The rugby governing bodies need to get involved and be proactive to encourage and keep young players in rugby.

Of course it needs to be monitored so that school teams arent stacked with too many talented imports but if kept in perspective its a good thing. If it means a young person receives an educational opportunity and is successful in schoolboy rugby and is encouraged to continue with rugby after school, then who could complain.

I'm sure there would be many talented young people whose families would need financial assistance in attending a certain school, so it can be justifiable from that point of view.

But that money has to come from somewhere and therein lies the problem imo.

If every school had a money tree and certain reasonable restrictions were placed on recruitment, it would improve rugby long term.

 

[Black & White]

WOW B & W,

1 of the best written forward thinking pieces I have read on G&G. I am sure you know my view on the need for change and your summation is terrific.

There is a way to win this war!

Thanks, WLF, for your support, if we are to survive as a code our thinking about the Game needs to change and change fundamentally starting at the schoolboy level.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Great, so we're framing schoolboy scholarships in a Machiavellian, realpolitik, Gordon Gecko fight against the AFL and the mungos.

Before I tee off, I like the idea that the GPS scholarships allow talented footballers from disadvantaged backgrounds opportunities that they don't otherwise have.

BUT: Giving a scholarship to a talented kid from RL doesn't guarantee that a kid with a rugby scholarship will end up playing rugby union. Your argument ignores all the talk of rugby league recruiting kids from GPS schools on this very forum. So the scholarship means that a kid matriculates at a GPS school (which is a great opportunity), plays in their first XV (keeping the Old Boys happy) and then can go and play for Parra or the Broncos after school. Brilliant.

Further, a lot of these boys aren't recruited from rugby league. They're recruited from other (less cashed up) rugby schools. This is particularly true of the Qld GPS who are raiding other rugby nurseries. 15-20 years ago, one could look at the lists of the Qld schoolboy teams and see plenty of representation from TAS/AIC and state schools. Now they're a rarity, and the AIC competition has suffered immensely, particularly at 1st XV level. The decline of the junior club competitions in both Sydney and Brisbane from U/14 up is also very well documented.

Now GPS scholarships are obviously not the sole cause of this, and the many other forces have been dissected ad nauseam in these forums. But I don't really see GPS scholarships as an effective foil against other sports competing for the hearts and minds of our youth. If anything, they just reinforce Australian Rugby's reputation as the preserve of Brisbane and Sydney's economic elite.

But it's unlikely to change. After initially protesting against other schools importing early developed bohemoths, Brisbane Grammar then decided to embrace scholarships. It was either that, or go the way of Sydney Grammar and Boys' High down in NSW. And I'm probably drawing a long bow, but could Shore eventually follow the same path? The GPS 1st XV competition would then only consist of 5 teams.

 

[WLF]

Great, so we're framing schoolboy scholarships in a Machiavellian, realpolitik, Gordon Gecko fight against the AFL and the mungos.

Before I tee off, I like the idea that the GPS scholarships allow talented footballers from disadvantaged backgrounds opportunities that they don't otherwise have.

BUT: Giving a scholarship to a talented kid from RL doesn't guarantee that a kid with a rugby scholarship will end up playing rugby union. Your argument ignores all the talk of rugby league recruiting kids from GPS schools on this very forum. So the scholarship means that a kid matriculates at a GPS school (which is a great opportunity), plays in their first XV (keeping the Old Boys happy) and then can go and play for Parra or the Broncos after school. Brilliant.

Further, a lot of these boys aren't recruited from rugby league. They're recruited from other (less cashed up) rugby schools. This is particularly true of the Qld GPS who are raiding other rugby nurseries. 15-20 years ago, one could look at the lists of the Qld schoolboy teams and see plenty of representation from TAS/AIC and state schools. Now they're a rarity, and the AIC competition has suffered immensely, particularly at 1st XV level. The decline of the junior club competitions in both Sydney and Brisbane from U/14 up is also very well documented.

Now GPS scholarships are obviously not the sole cause of this, and the many other forces have been dissected ad nauseam in these forums. But I don't really see GPS scholarships as an effective foil against other sports competing for the hearts and minds of our youth. If anything, they just reinforce Australian Rugby's reputation as the preserve of Brisbane and Sydney's economic elite.

But it's unlikely to change. After initially protesting against other schools importing early developed bohemoths, Brisbane Grammar then decided to embrace scholarships. It was either that, or go the way of Sydney Grammar and Boys' High down in NSW. And I'm probably drawing a long bow, but could Shore eventually follow the same path? The GPS 1st XV competition would then only consist of 5 teams.

TOD,

Firstly love your Brian Ferry Look.Great singer.

At the end of the day, I guess what most of us are saying is that the RU model for growth is busted. Forget imports etc, this is only the tip of the Ice Berg.

I recon we all believe the product is good enough but the brand and promotion has been non-existent for a long time, starting at school boy level, in fact much younger, where it really starts.

Look forward, not backwards,time for suggestions to move forward.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Thanks, WLF, for your support, if we are to survive as a code our thinking about the Game needs to change and change fundamentally starting at the schoolboy level.

B&W, if American style professional colleges are your thing, and to be the future of Rugby in Australia, then all I will say is AAGPS is not the vehicle.

If Newington want go down that path they should resign their membership and find some other like minded schools. Perhaps over CAS way, there is no restrictions on sports scholarships and there seems to be like minded CAS people on this thread.

Those schools that actually want to select a school 1st XV, of boys attending the school should be able to play like minded schools. Not a stacked opposition full of representative talent.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

TOD,

Firstly love your Brian Ferry Look.Great singer.

At the end of the day, I guess what most of us are saying is that the RU model for growth is busted. Forget imports etc, this is only the tip of the Ice Berg.

I recon we all believe the product is good enough but the brand and promotion has been non-existent for a long time, starting at school boy level, in fact much younger, where it really starts.

Look forward, not backwards,time for suggestions to move forward.

Firstly, the avatar is Dave Graney.

Secondly, what you're suggesting is that the ARU 'growth model' should consist of expensive private schools driving growth. And you're telling me to look forwards not backwards.

 

[Black & White]

I have also suggested the Sports High and Club Rugby, are also vehicles of change.

So its not a matter resigning from the GPS, particularly as the other GPS schools follow the scholarship path and one at least and possibly two more so than Newington. The point that I am making is we need a vision of reform, not every person is going to accept it. Views will differ, but we need a vision that is not rooted in the past.

I have stated my vision, a semi-professional competition, that already exists in Brisbane. So Queensland GPS, there is very much on the road to American College style football. The other 5 Sydney GPS Schools are also moving in that direction. So in that regard it is Shore that stands alone.

I am sure Knox would be only too happy to replace Shore. Giving it an enhanced Social and Sporting status. Not that it needs it. As Knox have scholarships the, issue about scholarships could die very quickly, as a revamped pro-scholarship GPS would now move on.

Again, I emphasise that a code is at a crossroads how we deal with it, will vary enormously in terms of opinions. But we cannot afford to ignore that change is necessary. We must change, otherwise HB, as previously expressed,I trust you will enjoy either soccer or Aussie Rules from the Hawker Stand at Shore.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

So again, you're suggesting that we shake up the current model by basically doing more of the same, but have this ratified by the ARU/state unions, at the largesse of school fee paying families and Federal funding? I think you'll find that you'll be seeing Aussie Rules at the Hawker Stand much quicker that way. I'm fairly sure that Shore view theirselves as a school with a proud history of producing champion sportsmen, as opposed to a place where sportsmen can sit their HSC. The scholarship situation is not something that can really be controlled.

Again, I'm not so sure that running any 'semi pro' schoolboy rugby competition would be compatible with a sustainable junior club competition, given that most kids go and play for their private schools from year 7, and any talented kids who go to state schools are already 'poached'.

You're also completely ignoring the players from 2nd XV downwards, whose parents pay school fees (to possibly subsidise those of the 1st XV), and who could form the lifeblood of Club and Subbies Rugby, and in turn could get a lifetime of enjoyment of the game. What does a semi pro comp achieve for them?

 

[The Honey Badger]

Well said TOD