School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[sidelineview]

How do you explain Kurtley Beale & Triston Reilly from Joeys pursuing rugby careers post school.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

How do you explain Kurtley Beale & Triston Reilly from Joeys pursuing rugby careers post school.

Explain? What is there to explain? In Beale's case I don't think he played rugby before going to SJC - so he didn't have 14 other rugby union team mates and he hadn't been playing in a union comp which fell apart when all the private school boys were prevented from playing club rugby by their schools.
Beale was signed to the Tahs while still at school.
Assuming your claims in the other thread are right it sounds as if Reilly is the same - except without (as far as I know) a Tahs contract.
If you want to tear down this point you need to identify the 12 13 or 14 kids who were the teammates of the scholarship boy and show what happened to them - there the one's we're losing to the game entirely. And you need to absorb the comments of others (not me) over the years about the impact on club rugby in high school - Quick Hands knows all the stats and can show you the declining player numbers between 13 and 15s/16s.

 

[sidelineview]

The scholarship argument cant explain the drop off of rugby played in public schools.
Preventing students playing club rugby is because why?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The scholarship argument cant explain the drop off of rugby played in public schools.
Preventing students playing club rugby is because why?

My understanding of the public school issue is that its a lack of qualified personnel to "take" the sport. I also hear that whereas Wednesday afternoons were once for sport they no longer are.
You suggest elsewhere that schools play league - my understanding is that even that code is smaller now than it once was.
Your favourite example, Matraville, is a sports high in a league area.
Im not sure what your last line means: the schools demand it. Here is an example:

• Saint Ignatius’ College, through the terms of enrolment, will be given priority when a student is
  selected to be involved in particular cultural and sporting pursuits, over and above those selected to external sporting and cultural affiliations

 

[sidelineview]

Matraville High was always in a strong league area.
Wednesday afternoon rugby was once very strong in public schools.
Exactly when and why it dropped off Im not sure but it did.
The growth in the popularity of Club AFL and soccer is a significant part of this issue. League kids attending rugby schools adapt to rugby easily and some do choose rugby post school.
AFL & soccer kids are gonsky from the school rugby playing ranks.
When Club anything clashes with school rugby its expected students prioritise school sport. Thats normal.
When Club rugby is played on Sunday there's no reason why they cant play both.
The rugby governing bodies have been asleep at the wheel.
That cant be disputed

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The body "governing" rugby has left development to everyone else - including league

 

[sidelineview]

Its no excuse though is it? While AFL particularly, and as a new player several years ago, has been diligent in promoting the game through Clubs and become a part of school sport, the rugby powers to be haven't been proactive in looking after the grassroots of the game.
Isnt it normal for all private school rugby players, on scholarship or not, to prioritise school sport?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Its no excuse though is it? While AFL particularly, and as a new player several years ago, has been diligent in promoting the game through Clubs and become a part of school sport, the rugby powers to be haven't been proactive in looking after the grassroots of the game.
Isnt it normal for all private school rugby players, on scholarship or not, to prioritise school sport?

Yes.

 

[BAR]

I agree SLV that private school students do prioritise school sport. And I have no concerns with that when there's actually a clash with compulsory school sport. But, the schools that are often mentioned in this thread expect that prioritisation to occur even when there's no clash regardless of the desires of the player. There are plenty of private school boys running around on Sunday in the club comp here in Sydney but from about U15 those players tend not to be from the schools who get a mention in this thread.

On the public school front, from my experience sports that get a run properly in public schools tend to do so off the back of enthusiastic parents and/or local clubs. Public schools take little responsibility for driving sports other than hit and giggle games with the kids. So, if someone else takes the drivers seat they're more than happy. This is why AFL has been so effective in infiltrating the public school system in non-traditional AFL territories. They turn up with a slick package ("we'll take care of everything") and take all pressure off the schools to do anything or spend anything (and it doesn't hurt that they throw a half decent bribe in for the kids too). There's nothing remotely like it from Rugby.

 

[sidelineview]

I didnt realise some schools demand that exclusivity of playing school sport. Thats unreasonable.
AFL is very slick in promoting the sport. They moved in to take advantage of the Super League war as well.
The way its been allowed to move into traditional rugby schools in particular is bloody annoying, but thats history. As you say they came bearing gifts. They are well resourced.
Rugby on the other hand .....
Fortunately there are some schools and Clubs doing some good work in developing young rugby players.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Not sure "developing" is the right word: developing would entail making what talent you happen to have better not going out and replacing what you have with undoubted talent.
All the rugby playing schools of which I am aware do a very professional job coaching their kids: and why wouldn't they, they have strict legal obligations in relation to safety etc.
Some clubs do a good job.
Many are just the platform for nepotism and pissing contests, or both.

 

[sidelineview]

I meant developing and thats what I can see happening in my little world and i applaud it.

 

[WLF]

I agree SLV that private school students do prioritise school sport. And I have no concerns with that when there's actually a clash with compulsory school sport. But, the schools that are often mentioned in this thread expect that prioritisation to occur even when there's no clash regardless of the desires of the player. There are plenty of private school boys running around on Sunday in the club comp here in Sydney but from about U15 those players tend not to be from the schools who get a mention in this thread.

On the public school front, from my experience sports that get a run properly in public schools tend to do so off the back of enthusiastic parents and/or local clubs. Public schools take little responsibility for driving sports other than hit and giggle games with the kids. So, if someone else takes the drivers seat they're more than happy. This is why AFL has been so effective in infiltrating the public school system in non-traditional AFL territories. They turn up with a slick package ("we'll take care of everything") and take all pressure off the schools to do anything or spend anything (and it doesn't hurt that they throw a half decent bribe in for the kids too). There's nothing remotely like it from Rugby.

Here is what I think has been happening and I am interested to hear other people's opinions.

1. AFL and Soccer have successfully out marketed Rugby, BIG TIME for all the reasons BAR, sideline and everyone has outlined.
2. Typically boys over 15 find it physically tougher than in younger years, to play a school game on Sat and then back up on Sunday, this is aside from their parents instructing them that study is also now a priority ie on Sunday, as Sat school sport is compulsory.
This would affect overall Sunday club numbers, I would think.
3. Many parents these days just don't want little Johnny to get tackled, I have been told that soccer is very physical! (WTF)
4. The ARU is embarrassing, I believe the business lost $3m last FY.
5. The headline act for rugby, the Wallabies, don't compete well anymore on the world stage.

I am sure we could all go on, but this is a train smash, everything starts at the top.
This is a business, ie ARU led, and it is almost in insolvency.

The strengths of the game need to be promoted at all levels, particularly at the grass roots level.
These chosen strengths need to be palatable to a much broader audience then is currently the case.

 

[Show and go]

Club rugby will always struggle as most schools with a good rugby programme are training 4-5 times a week then game day on Saturday throw in a bit off study and it’s far too much to commit to another 2 training sessions a week and a game on Sunday for club rugby.
Then you have preseason school rugby camps and tours along with schoolboy rep training and carnivals along with Harold matts and sg ball players who have been training for 6 months before rugby season starts , club rugby is well down the priority list. I just can’t see how club rugby can survive with these dynamics.
There is far to many injury’s happening in rugby/league , the question has to be asked why?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Club rugby will always struggle as most schools with a good rugby programme are training 4-5 times a week then game day on Saturday throw in a bit off study and it’s far too much to commit to another 2 training sessions a week and a game on Sunday for club rugby.
Then you have preseason school rugby camps and tours along with schoolboy rep training and carnivals along with Harold matts and sg ball players who have been training for 6 months before rugby season starts , club rugby is well down the priority list. I just can’t see how club rugby can survive with these dynamics.
There is far to many injury’s happening in rugby/league , the question has to be asked why?

Well, according to this bloke there’s a simple solution: “With the cost of ACL surgery in Australia estimated to come to $142 million each year, Associate Professor Vertullo is calling for a national prevention program to be established to teach volunteer coaches to introduce effective warm-up techniques.”
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aus...preventable-acl-injuries-20180421-p4zay6.html

 

[Up the Guts]

Here is what I think has been happening and I am interested to hear other people's opinions.

1. AFL and Soccer have successfully out marketed Rugby, BIG TIME for all the reasons BAR, sideline and everyone has outlined.
2. Typically boys over 15 find it physically tougher than in younger years, to play a school game on Sat and then back up on Sunday, this is aside from their parents instructing them that study is also now a priority ie on Sunday, as Sat school sport is compulsory.

What you have to consider when you compare AFL and soccer to rugby in respect to club numbers is that for the most part school rugby is the premier rugby competition whereas for soccer and AFL club is the premier competition. Two years ago Shore won the GPS Soccer Competition and for half the games they had their best players unavailable because they were playing for their clubs instead. School AFL competitions also don't tend to be as strong as club competition or development programmes like the Swans Academy. It might be still the case AFL and soccer are out marketing rugby but it's comparing apples to oranges looking at club numbers. Better to look at total registered players.

 

[WLF]

What you have to consider when you compare AFL and soccer to rugby in respect to club numbers is that for the most part school rugby is the premier rugby competition whereas for soccer and AFL club is the premier competition. Two years ago Shore won the GPS Soccer Competition and for half the games they had their best players unavailable because they were playing for their clubs instead. School AFL competitions also don't tend to be as strong as club competition or development programmes like the Swans Academy. It might be still the case AFL and soccer are out marketing rugby but it's comparing apples to oranges looking at club numbers. Better to look at total registered players.

I am certainly not going to argue with you re AFL and soccer at club level, and everything you said.
BUT even at school level there are typically many more soccer teams, not AFL as yet, than rugby teams.
So club may be stronger for these sports but they still win in numbers at school, which is probably why this translates to club as well.

I also don't understand why a great school like Shore, or any other, allows their best players to play club ahead of school.
That really does sh... me.

School first, the rest 2nd.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Rugby is the only sport that pretty much selects for parental income between 12 and 18.
All the other winter codes + cricket do not involve your parents having a lazy $30k after tax to purchase the right to play.
And the number of private schoolboys who make it in cricket (despite a recent uptick) tells you that the $ qualification will not get the best athletes.
That’s how we got here.
It’s not a problem across the ditch.

 

[WLF]

Rugby is the only sport that pretty much selects for parental income between 12 and 18.
All the other winter codes + cricket do not involve your parents having a lazy $30k after tax to purchase the right to play.
And the number of private schoolboys who make it in cricket (despite a recent uptick) tells you that the $ qualification will not get the best athletes.
That’s how we got here.
It’s not a problem across the ditch.

Yep astute point, so I guess the question now is, this has always been the case for many years, why now are we in dire straights?

I think it's as stated above, we live in a much more competitive world.

 

[sidelineview]

Well, according to this bloke there’s a simple solution: “With the cost of ACL surgery in Australia estimated to come to $142 million each year, Associate Professor Vertullo is calling for a national prevention program to be established to teach volunteer coaches to introduce effective warm-up techniques.”
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aus...preventable-acl-injuries-20180421-p4zay6.html

Interesting ...and the program would be delivered via an app ...