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Scrum Talk

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GaffaCHinO

GaffaCHinO

Peter Sullivan (51)
Bardon said:
Was it just me or did anyone else notice that the scrum call in the weekends games, by many of the referees, has slowed down to the same level as the crouch touch pause engage? Some referees seem to be adding their own silent pause into the new sequence. In the NH club competition the whole sequence seemed to be more fluid than what I saw at the weekend.
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Iv been thinking for a long time that alot of the scrum time issues are a result of the refs playing chicken with the players. They should just get on with it. They were always going to hold affer the touch call and try and ping someone for something.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2
 
Rob

Rob

Sydney Middleton (9)
rugbysmartarse said:
you may be Jack. Watch the french first try. First scrum (our feed) we got pinged for crooked feed. The second scrum we were monstered - they drove us off the ball, we fractured and were luck they didn't get the try from that scrum. Third scrum they drove us up, and we popped too, when they went blind and got a (cheeky/illegal) try
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The bottom line is that our scrum is very poor. We have one genuine scrummager - Robbo - who is looking abit jaded. One sometimes ok scrummager - Kepu- who was first game back from injury and struggled. Then two very average scrummagers. I have seen PR get pumped playing second grade against Eastwood and Slipper is the king of collapsing. Even Kafe on the commentary was saying that both these latter mentioned props are good around the park but need to work on their scrummaging. How do you get to 30 odd tests for Australia (Slipper) and not be a good scrummager?

Maybe I am old fashioned but if you are playing for you country as a prop I want you to be a good scrummager. If you are also good around the field then that is a bonus. But selecting the otherway around, which seems to be what happens in Australia, causes us problems as we saw on the weekend. For many years now we havent considered the scrum important enough and only pay lip service to its importance. Maybe after a spring tour of penalty tries we may change our attitude.
 
Inside Shoulder

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Rob said:
as a prop I want you to be a good scrummager. If you are also good around the field then that is a bonus.
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Amen, brother.
This seems to be an after thought from the juniors all the way up: kids in gold squads are taught to run lines and angles, when they are clearly front rowers, instead of being schooled in the dark arts (of which I know little, I hasten to add).
 
It is what it is

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
In one of the close up shots of a 1st half scrum engaging, Kepu hit and bounced back into a squat like sitting position.
WTF was that about?
If his spine was aligned properly and/or his lock was attached properly, this just couldn't happen.
At one stage Robinson tried the dead man's drop and was embarrassingly picked up by his opponent and driven backwards.
What has our scrummaging come to?
 
en_force_er

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
en_force_er

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
rugbysmartarse said:
Why is that? How can that be translated to pro rugby?
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There's the million dollar question.

I've seen a variety of different senior leagues around our great nation and the reality is unless the league is professional the scrum rarely collapses. From what I hear it's like this all over the world. Trailing a system that involved pre-binding in an amateur league where collapses rarely occur will create meaningless data, because they never really had the collapsing issue anyway.

I'd say the current scrummaging system works pretty damn well at amateur level, it only falls apart when professionals push the envelope and therein lies the issue.
 
D-Box

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
Is it because the pros are so much better a trying to get penalties by making it look like the opposition has done something wrong? I mean how often do you see a team that is scrumming ok get a 5m attacking scrum and get pinged for doing something illegal. I mean who would do that.
 
hawktrain

hawktrain

Ted Thorn (20)
I dunno, I think the refereeing of scrums is filtering down, where refs will blow up a scrum at the first sight of an imbalance, even if one team has clearly won posession. Played in a semi final last year where one scrum took literally 4-5 minutes to finally get the ball out of, after 4 resets. Possibly the most frustrating thing in the world.

The props binding before engagement in SA is interesting, I think that will probably be the medium to long term option.
 
en_force_er

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
D-Box said:
Is it because the pros are so much better a trying to get penalties by making it look like the opposition has done something wrong? I mean how often do you see a team that is scrumming ok get a 5m attacking scrum and get pinged for doing something illegal. I mean who would do that.
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Not really, I'm yet to meet a professional prop who deliberately collapses (though plenty of couch experts suggest they do).

It's more a case of if I try make it awkward for you to scrum against me (with my binding, body height, or anything else) then when you find it too awkward to maintain (and since you're supporting me) the only place for us to go is down.
 
D-Box

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
Ok perhaps not making it collapse, but is there just a different mindset. In the armatures is it more about get a good hit bind and then drive through when the ball is there versus the games described above. I will point out that I am a back and o those cold days (bout 20 here in WA) you just hope it will be a quick scrum so you can get going again.

There may also be somthing in the biomechanics of it all and I will have to read some of the papers when I get back to work.
 
Bruce Ross

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
en_force_er said:
Not really, I'm yet to meet a professional prop who deliberately collapses (though plenty of couch experts suggest they do).
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It wouldn't be too hard, en_force_er, to arrange an introduction for you to a Wallaby prop who was notorious for taking scrums down, and in retirement coached the props at one of our provincial sides to do it. Or consider Japan's national coach, Eddie Jones, who openly advocates collapsing scrums when his pack is under pressure:


This is what Jones had to say in the press conference following the game against the French Barbarians (starts around 7:20):

"If I was a young forward out there today and the scrum was getting pushed back, the only way it would go, I'd collapse the scrum. How many scrums did we collapse today?"

Some might compliment him on his honesty - I don't; for mine he's a cheating grub - but given the potential danger involved it seems astonishing that a national coach could publicly advocate this and not be censured.
.
 
wamberal

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
The son of a friend of mine was in a collapsed scrum, he is now a quadriplegic. Appalling comment by the little merkin.
 
Ruggo

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
en_force_er said:
There's the million dollar question.

I've seen a variety of different senior leagues around our great nation and the reality is unless the league is professional the scrum rarely collapses. From what I hear it's like this all over the world. Trailing a system that involved pre-binding in an amateur league where collapses rarely occur will create meaningless data, because they never really had the collapsing issue anyway.

I'd say the current scrummaging system works pretty damn well at amateur level, it only falls apart when professionals push the envelope and therein lies the issue.
Click to expand...

I played hooker in club rugby and I always found little referee interference which led the six of us to just do it. I always found there to be an unwritten ethic to go hard but safe as we all had to rock up to work on the Monday. As a young, unexperieced and somewhat small player I always found the older blokes to take care of the younger ones. While competing they were always forthright to share information, critique and tips to enhance your play. Bye the old timer a beer while watching the next game and he will be almost certain to offer advice.

That is how I found my experience in the game.
 
yourmatesam

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
Ruggo said:
I played hooker in club rugby and I always found little referee interference which led the six of us to just do it. I always found there to be an unwritten ethic to go hard but safe as we all had to rock up to work on the Monday. As a young, unexperieced and somewhat small player I always found the older blokes to take care of the younger ones. While competing they were always forthright to share information, critique and tips to enhance your play. Bye the old timer a beer while watching the next game and he will be almost certain to offer advice.

That is how I found my experience in the game.
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And that attitude is what makes our game awesome!
 
Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
The IRB Rugby Show had a segment on scrummaging, including some attempts to scientifically measure the forces on a front row.

I was interested in a trial that is apparently underway in Pacific Rugby Cup, where the Hit is reduced to about 5 cm.

It looked like the front rows were nearly fully engaged when the Ref calls pack.

Is this the same tournament that the Academies are currently playing in against Tonga A, Samoa A etc? and if so has anyone got any comment on how effective it has been?

Will we see a return to a hooking contest and feeds in the centre of the scrum?
 
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