Scrum Talk

[Chris McCracken]

5's head is above the THPs bum a split second after they pack.
I'd be interested to hear from those more knowledgeable what the counter to an LHP angling (used to be called boring) in is? I know what the old fashioned solution was: and so does Graham Price.

Nutta wrote an excellent post on just that in the blog comments a while back.

It's in the comments here:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/wednesdays-rugby-news-72/

 

[Quick Hands]

And what did they do to counter those tactics?

Isn't that the referee's job - to penalise illegal tactics? Because the follow up point thrown at Aussie scrums is that they scrum illegally to mask technical deficiencies.

 

[Quick Hands]

Get the near side touchie to manage the opposite side of the scrum, that would "hopefully" start to help.

But in the particular scrum highlighted, the referee was standing right there.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I agree with you: its funny.
I've thought of it more than once: you need an all in so that the ref can't/wont send anyone.
Trouble is, i have a sneaking suspicion we'd lose the fight too.

When was the last "decent" toe to toe good old fashioned Marquis of Queensbury's rules fisticuffs fight in a top level rugby game? I can't remember one. It is all about a bit of pushing, shoving, posturing, evil looks and delivering some nasty swear words nowdays.

In 1956 NZ recruited Kevin Skinner, their Heavyweight boxing champion, out of rugby retirement to prop their scrum for their series against the Saffers. Having appropriately subdued up his opposite Saffer prop in the first half, he changed sides in the scrum for the second stanza to ensure both fatties knew who was boss. NZ won both tests in the series after his comeback from retirement.

 

[Quick Hands]

When was the last "decent" toe to toe good old fashioned Marquis of Queensbury's rules fisticuffs fight in a top level rugby game? I can't remember one. It is all about a bit of pushing, shoving, posturing, evil looks and delivering some nasty swear words nowdays.

In 1956 NZ recruited Kevin Skinner, their Heavyweight boxing champion, out of rugby retirement to prop their scrum for their series against the Saffers. Having appropriately subdued up his opposite Saffer prop in the first half, he changed sides in the scrum for the second stanza to ensure both fatties knew who was boss. NZ won both tests in the series after his comeback from retirement.

You mean this match?http://blogs.sport24.co.za/mclook/2012/11/04/third-test-1956/

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Awesome find and great read. No wonder there is so much passion between the Bokke and Kiwi.

In 1956, the NZers set about about redressing Saffer scrummaging tactics employed since 1921.
What hope is there for us to rival this? In that time the European powers had fought a bitter War, kissed and made up, and united as democracies to fight against the evils of communism. Not the Saffers and Kiwis.


Great Quote:
Skinner: “From what I’ve read over the years you’d have thought the fighting in that third test lasted the entire game, but that simply wasn’t true. There were only two punches –one that floored Koch and the one that stopped Bekker.”

Is there any chance that one of Skinner's kids or grandkids joined the kiwi diaspora, and is lurking around here somewhere?

We need some of that attitude in our piggies.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Although Japp Bekker was no shrinking violet either
http://blogs.sport24.co.za/mclook/2012/11/04/third-test-1956/

 

[mxyzptlk]

Get the near side touchie to manage the opposite side of the scrum, that would "hopefully" start to help.

What do you make of having an extra official -- former front rower -- come on specifically for scrums and monitor the opposite side of the ref?

Personally, I think it'd cause a hell of a lot of problems, resets, and penalties, for a while. But after a breaking-in period, packs would start scrummaging more fairly because they couldn't afford the risks. After a game or two was lost on a scrum ref's penalty call, that stuff would start to come to a halt.

I dunno, I'd at least like to see it trialed.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

For all the rabble that "olden day" scrums were, they seemed to be a fairly decent contest for the ball, and were over and done with in about 15 seconds, with the players then getting on with the game.

Currently, each scrum is about 90 seconds minimum of lost game time. More when a fatty needs the physio to have a look at their heartlidge, take a hydration break, etc and slowly saunter across to where Sir has indicated that the game needs to be restarted with a contest for the ball.

 

[Strewthcobber]

For all the rabble that "olden day" scrums were, they seemed to be a fairly decent contest for the ball, and were over and done with in about 15 seconds, with the players then getting on with the game.

Currently, each scrum is about 90 seconds minimum of lost game time. More when a fatty needs the physio to have a look at their heartlidge, take a hydration break, etc and slowly saunter across to where Sir has indicated that the game needs to be restarted with a contest for the ball.

Based on all the research I've seen though there's a lot fewer broken necks these days...

 

[Quick Hands]

For all the rabble that "olden day" scrums were, they seemed to be a fairly decent contest for the ball, and were over and done with in about 15 seconds, with the players then getting on with the game.

Currently, each scrum is about 90 seconds minimum of lost game time. More when a fatty needs the physio to have a look at their heartlidge, take a hydration break, etc and slowly saunter across to where Sir has indicated that the game needs to be restarted with a contest for the ball.

Anyone who doubts this should go to post #552 on page 28.

 

[Quick Hands]

Based on all the research I've seen though there's a lot fewer broken necks these days.

The broken necks started when the hit started and the scrum became 8 men crashing into another 8 men all tightly bound. Prior to that (see post #558), the scrum was really not much more than an organised ruck.

 

[brokendown]

Based on all the research I've seen though there's a lot fewer broken necks these days.

thats because hangings have not taken place for many a year

 

[Strewthcobber]

The broken necks started when the hit started and the scrum became 8 men crashing into another 8 men all tightly bound. Prior to that (see post #558), the scrum was really not much more than an organised ruck.

That's really not true (depending on your timescale).
Catastrophic neck injuries from scrums have been declining for at least 30 years at least across all players. Pro levels might be bucking the trend these days. They are still too high.

 

[Quick Hands]

That's really not true (depending on your timescale).
Catastrophic neck injuries from scrums have been declining for at least 30 years at least across all players. Pro levels might be bucking the trend these days. They are still too high.

If you go back to the 60s (see post #558), you'll see that the scrum was a low impact, fairly loose arrangement and you were most likely to suffer a serious injury from someone's fist. As scrums became more highly organised and structured in the 70s (a Welsh bloke named Williams I think worked out how everyone should bind and where their feet should be etc), the impact became exponentially more intense. This was the period when spinal injuries started to occur and on into the 80s. Medically it was found that the vast majority of these injuries came at the point of engagement, (My understanding is that the spinal cord injuries were caused by the angle of the neck at the point of impact) rather than at the point of collapse and thus the controlled scrum engagement in it's various forms was brought in. This almost eliminated these types of injuries as the packs generally came together when everyone was ready and square. The unintended consequence of the CTPE etc. process was that it made the impact even greater so quite often the scrum just went to ground leading to endless resets.

All the figures that I have seen indicate that most if not all of these type of injuries now occur at the tackle rather than the scrum. (although as you say, one is too many). Fortunately I haven't heard of one in rugby for a while (although I'm not saying that they don't happen)

 

[Lee Grant]

In 1956 NZ recruited Kevin Skinner, their Heavyweight boxing champion, out of rugby retirement to prop their scrum for their series against the Saffers. Having appropriately subdued up his opposite Saffer prop in the first half, he changed sides in the scrum for the second stanza to ensure both fatties knew who was boss. NZ won both tests in the series after his comeback from retirement.

I was at that game in Christchurch.

That tour produced the most momentous series in the history of rugby in NZ, as far as its effect on the country as a whole was concerned. The Rugby World Cup series are big things for them there, but nothing has compared to the Boks tour of NZ in 1956.

NZ had never beaten South Africa in a series before and the Springboks had beaten the Kiwis in NZ before the war when Danie Craven was still playing.

In the 1949 series in South Africa the Boks won 4-0; so when they arrived in NZ in 1956, with Craven now the coach, it was as though the Germans had invaded the country with Rommel in charge.

The ABs won the first test but lost the second and the whole country was nervous.

For the third test they dropped their captain and halfback Pat Vincent, and brought back into the team prop Skinner and the rawboned fisherman, no.8 Peter Jones. Jones was then 17 stone (108 kgs) and surely too big to play in the backrow for a whole game (there were no replacements allowed even for injuries at the time) but he went OK.

They also introduced a young fullback called Don Clarke who was as big as Jones was, and bigger than his brother Ian who was the other All Black prop.

I remember the fisticuffs and everybody had a good laugh but nobody would have thought it was going to go down in rugby history. That kind of thing happened a lot.

They won, to lead the series 2-1, and, because it was the school holidays I was allowed to go to Auckland and stay with my aunty for the fourth test, which NZ had to win otherwise it would be 2-2.

In one of the most famous test matches ever played they won with Jones scoring NZ's only try.


But this is the scrum thread?

Excuuuuse me.
.

 

[brokendown]

I was at the the 2nd test at Athletic park--as a 7 year old I can't remember much except being crammed in like sardines on the then western bank!

 

[Quick Hands]

I was at that game in Christchurch.

That tour produced the most momentous series in the history of rugby in NZ, as far as its effect on the country as a whole was concerned. The Rugby World Cup series are big things for them there, but nothing has compared to the Boks tour of NZ in 1956.

NZ had never beaten South Africa in a series before and the Springboks had beaten the Kiwis in NZ before the war when Danie Craven was still playing.

In the 1949 series in South Africa the Boks won 4-0; so when they arrived in NZ in 1956, with Craven now the coach, it was as though the Germans had invaded the country with Rommel in charge.

The ABs won the first test but lost the second and the whole country was nervous.

For the third test they dropped their captain and halfback Pat Vincent, and brought back into the team prop Skinner and the rawboned fisherman, no.8 Peter Jones. Jones was then 17 stone (108 kgs) and surely too big to play in the backrow for a whole game (there were no replacements allowed even for injuries at the time) but he went OK.

They also introduced a young fullback called Don Clarke who was as big as Jones was, and bigger than his brother Ian who was the other All Black prop.

I remember the fisticuffs and everybody had a good laugh but nobody would have thought it was going to go down in rugby history. That kind of thing happened a lot.

They won, to lead the series 2-1, and, because it was the school holidays I was allowed to go to Auckland and stay with my aunty for the fourth test, which NZ had to win otherwise it would be 2-2.

In one of the most famous test matches ever played they won with Jones scoring NZ's only try.


But this is the scrum thread?

Excuuuuse me.
.

I think we can forgive such diversions when there's no rugby on - especially when they're so interesting.

 

[Lee Grant]

I was at the the 2nd test at Athletic park--as a 7 year old I can't remember much except being crammed in like sardines on the then western bank!

They flocked to those games. My school chums and I got to the queue the night before; some folks got there mid-week. It wasn't much different for the Canterbury game.

When I got to Auckland I watched the ABs train on the Thursday. In those days of over-the-top amateur rugby touring teams had a big advantage because the home team wasn't allowed to convene until the Thursday before the match.

I've told this story before - but I got to the queue which was hundreds of yards long about 8am and after waiting a while I asked the people next to me to save my spot because I wanted to stretch my legs.

I walked towards the front of the queue yarning to a few people on the way. The gates weren't supposed to open for hours but for some reason they must have reckoned the crowd was going to be so big they would open them earlier.

It caught everybody by surprise. I was walking along and the gates opened and everybody started getting their stuff together to go in and I hardly even broke step as I walked through them towards the ticket booth. I was one of the first hundred people to get in and I camped on the halfway line at Eden Park.

I was a teenager and it was then I realised that I was going to be a bad man—I should have gone back.
.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Thanks for sharing your stories of 1956, @Lee Grant. We need more great stories like these in the forums.

All the interstate and inter-franchise sniping, trolling and overall negativity wears one down after a while, and it is refreshing to read some first hand anecdotal stories about our fantastic game - even if they may be about Kiwis and Saffers.