Shute Shield 2013

[TOCC]

Whilst I don't want to turn this conversation into another third tier spin-off.... The effects of a Super Rugby B competition on the Shute shield(and premier grade in QLD) could be enormous..

It could see a reduction in appearances by professional players and subsequently a fall in sponsorship and gate revenue, these clubs would need to reorganize themselves into lower cost entities... Given the financial liabilities many of them carry, reduced income would limit their ability to service the debt, interesting times ahead..

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The demise of some clubs is largely due to poor board room management. We've seen it at National and state level but its worse at the Club level as it effects many people. Some have very little management or financial skills and they are there for their own egos. However, the positive is that some of these clubs have identified the problem and now taken action and replaced their management.

That implies that the financial side of SS is viable "as is".
My point in posting these accounts was to show that whatever the ARU review was said to show about the relativities of UNi v Easts & randwick might require closer inspection.
If those 2 are the second tier of financial soundness in SS then god help the third tier (of financial soundness).

 

[Bowside]

Whilst I don't want to turn this conversation into another third tier spin-off.. The effects of a Super Rugby B competition on the Shute shield(and premier grade in QLD) could be enormous..

It could see a reduction in appearances by professional players and subsequently a fall in sponsorship and gate revenue, these clubs would need to reorganize themselves into lower cost entities. Given the financial liabilities many of them carry, reduced income would limit their ability to service the debt, interesting times ahead..

Getting the debt under control before the third tier comes is certainly a massive challenge for some clubs.

In the longer term I think it will be a blessing in disguise for club rugby as it may serve to even up the playing field a bit as powerhouse teams like Sydney Uni, UQ, Souths, Manly, Sunnybank etc. see their star players filter up to academy teams. No doubt it will greatly reduce the amount of club players receiving payments as well.

One thing I wonder about is whether the third tier will lead to the mooted reduction of teams per club or conversely have the opposite effect as clubs look to collect registration fees off as many blokes as possible.

 

[Done that]

That implies that the financial side of SS is viable "as is".
My point in posting these accounts was to show that whatever the ARU review was said to show about the relativities of UNi v Easts & randwick might require closer inspection.
If those 2 are the second tier of financial soundness in SS then god help the third tier (of financial soundness).

In reality though , are they the next 2 teams in "financial soundness "?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

In reality though , are they the next 2 teams in "financial soundness "?

I dont know - TOCC quoted the article suggesting they were: hence my immediate concerns.
Surely others must have access to the accounts of other clubs: i was sent the link to these by Easts - are other clubs less transparent?

 

[Andrew B Cox]

A few trials this weekend. Any results? How are the respective pre-season tours going?

 

[boyo]

There was a time, not many years ago, when many of the Wallabies played for Randwick, even though said Wallabies had no affiliation with that area. Strange, eh.

 

[the coach]

Surely all this talk of a university based 3rd tier and academy / super B tier will only result in a spreading of the available talent and other resources (esp money) very thinly across multiple competitions. Club rugby is not going away. In spite of what the ARU might want to happen as I keep saying club rugby is for guys who want to play rugby. I would have thought that if we really want (?) a third tier we need to concentrate the talent in one competition.

 

[Torn Hammy]

Surely all this talk of a university based 3rd tier and academy / super B tier will only result in a spreading of the available talent and other resources (esp money) very thinly across multiple competitions. Club rugby is not going away. In spite of what the ARU might want to happen as I keep saying club rugby is for guys who want to play rugby. I would have thought that if we really want (?) a third tier we need to concentrate the talent in one competition.

Interestingly six universities approached Swimming Australia and asked for their co-operation in endorsing and setting up of an inter-university competition.

 

[Rugby Central]

For years colts use to be U21, there was no under 19's - I recall (not sure if it was standard), it was U17 to U21 colts. Your idea for the age groups may not be a bad idea though.
What shouldnt be lost:
One of the great things about Shute Shield (or club rugbyin general) could be deleted with the concept you propose - 3 grade teams.
I raised the questions what happens when you go passed 22?
Also what happens if you just keep playing for the love and social side of it - do you have to leave the club you've always played with.
Some of the 3rd, 4th, & 5th graders are the fantasic vonenteers that stick around on game day helping out.

I can’t argue with the fact that those who play for love are important. But financial fact flies in the face of your sentiment. From all the posts, evidence suggests sponsors and supporters are not flocking to Sydney Uni to watch their 4th Grade. I also don’t see their BBQ pulling in (as suggested) $1.3 million. If it is, tell me who their butcher is.

If Shute Shield was reduced to 2 senior grades and 1 Colts, it could then be played on either Sundays or even Friday or Saturday nights. Maybe not the ideal time for puritans but makes for better crowds as those involved in their own clubs and schoolboy games can then come and watch Club rugby at its finest. Those who play for the love can join existing Subbies Clubs in their area or enter a Subbies team under the banner of their Shute Shield Club.

For those who think a club can’t survive, please tell me why Super Rugby has not collapsed. Please tell me how the NSWRL expanded to what we see today when those Clubs did not run around with 4 Grades and 3 U21 sides. If you wonder how a Club will manage if there are too many injuries in a squad; they will look to other local Clubs and give a shot to someone just itching to prove themselves in Premier Rugby. Clubs will be forced to engage in the wider rugby community in order to ensure their sustainability and survival. Surely that can only be a good thing for Rugby

Unfortunately Club rugby can no longer live the amateur dream while also supporting professional development and players.

 

[en_force_er]

Lower Graders pay subs, pay for gear, buy beers/food, etc. Also, their coaches tend to work for free and when they get old, grey, and sometimes wealthy they contribute to the club in other ways.

I really don't think scrapping lower grades will add to the club's overall earnings as these lower grades at least offset themselves, it would however be good for professionalism of the league.

 

[AussieDominance]

Lower Graders pay subs, pay for gear, buy beers/food, etc. Also, their coaches tend to work for free and when they get old, grey, and sometimes wealthy they contribute to the club in other ways.

I really don't think scrapping lower grades will add to the club's overall earnings as these lower grades at least offset themselves, it would however be good for professionalism of the league.

Agree with the above. Lower grade players are a great source of supporters for years ahead as well as during their own playing years.

You can't just get rid of them and expect crowds to turn up to watch the top two grades based on an area affiliation of which some clubs do not have.

 

[I like to watch]

You can't just get rid of them and expect crowds to turn up to watch the top two grades based on an area affiliation of which some clubs do not have.

They are the fucking crowd!

 

[Dave Beat]

I can’t argue with the fact that those who play for love are important. But financial fact flies in the face of your sentiment. From all the posts, evidence suggests sponsors and supporters are not flocking to Sydney Uni to watch their 4th Grade. I also don’t see their BBQ pulling in (as suggested) $1.3 million. If it is, tell me who their butcher is.

If Shute Shield was reduced to 2 senior grades and 1 Colts, it could then be played on either Sundays or even Friday or Saturday nights. Maybe not the ideal time for puritans but makes for better crowds as those involved in their own clubs and schoolboy games can then come and watch Club rugby at its finest. Those who play for the love can join existing Subbies Clubs in their area or enter a Subbies team under the banner of their Shute Shield Club.

For those who think a club can’t survive, please tell me why Super Rugby has not collapsed. Please tell me how the NSWRL expanded to what we see today when those Clubs did not run around with 4 Grades and 3 U21 sides. If you wonder how a Club will manage if there are too many injuries in a squad; they will look to other local Clubs and give a shot to someone just itching to prove themselves in Premier Rugby. Clubs will be forced to engage in the wider rugby community in order to ensure their sustainability and survival. Surely that can only be a good thing for Rugby

Unfortunately Club rugby can no longer live the amateur dream while also supporting professional development and players.

.

Rugby Central - you say Financial Fact??
I didnt see the SMH Financial Summary on all Shute Sheild clubs, being a Manly supporter you possibly saw their report (it on the website have a look) - it is a Financial Fact.
You would know Manly gets a good crowds at games, it also has a stack of young kids 4+ years of age who get down their with the families and have a great day. It forms part of the club culture.
Night games wouldnt get the young kids (grass roots), and many parents would be home with their families. Your suggestion of night games destroys grass roots. Plus did you not see the rugby audience pleading for arvo games last year whether it be the Wales Test, the Tah's arvo, or the Reds arvo games. Listen to the supporters.
What does it cost to take Mum, Dad, and 2 kids to a Super game, or an NSWRL game? at Manly the 4 can go for $120 a whole season.
3rd & 4th Grade, and at what ever club you look at play an important part of the whole day. Whether it be setting up, or sledging from the side line they are what forms a club.

Rugby Central, I think you are off the mark.

 

[howyagoin]

You obviously haven't been part of a Shute shield club for a while if you're suggesting scrap the lower grades... Not only do they do 90% of the fundraising on game days, they also buy the most beer & form the most vocal part of the crowd every week.... As well as being the guys who wear their club logo on their chests loudest & proudest... How bout we get back to if you're not in a match day 22 for a super rugby team you go & play club rugby... And that also means not having brumbies players "restricted" to only club rugby in Canberra!

 

[Dave Beat]

Like th

You obviously haven't been part of a Shute shield club for a while if you're suggesting scrap the lower grades. Not only do they do 90% of the fundraising on game days, they also buy the most beer & form the most vocal part of the crowd every week.. As well as being the guys who wear their club logo on their chests loudest & proudest. How bout we get back to if you're not in a match day 22 for a super rugby team you go & play club rugby. And that also means not having brumbies players "restricted" to only club rugby in Canberra!

You obviously haven't been part of a Shute shield club for a while if you're suggesting scrap the lower grades. Not only do they do 90% of the fundraising on game days, they also buy the most beer & form the most vocal part of the crowd every week.. As well as being the guys who wear their club logo on their chests loudest & proudest. How bout we get back to if you're not in a match day 22 for a super rugby team you go & play club rugby. And that also means not having brumbies players "restricted" to only club rugby in Canberra!

like this.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Please tell me how the NSWRL expanded to what we see today when those Clubs did not run around with 4 Grades and 3 U21 sides.

There's any number of historical reasons why league developed the way it did.
When the TV boom came Union was amateur. So when TV wanted more content league was in a position to supply it.
Mossop even tried broadcasting reserve grade league.
He and David Lord tried union on Friday nights from Redfern Oval but no one was interested.
The boat sailed and we weren't on it - thank god.
Union is in the blood - league is background noise on TV.
This why I keep banging on about the raison d'etre for the ARU: they dont exist for their own prosperity or for 150 contracted pro players they exist for the good the thousands of weekend warriors: the people who bleed union.

 

[Dave Beat]

DB - I'm not sure if you're involved in Junior Rugby in Sydney but the development of junior players is non existent from a Shute Shield Club level. You will never see them turn up to Junior's matches, you don't see them do anything. They go to the private schools and recruit from there. The juniors that do succeed, do so from raw talent and hard work, IN SPITE of shute shield clubs, not because of them. The only time a SHute Shield Club shows interest in a junior, not from the GPS and other private school systems, is when they make a schoolboy rep side. So please don't pretend there's some loyalty owed to Sydney Clubs for the work they don't do.

As for a Canberra team in Sydney or Brisbane. Tried that; but basically the majority clubs had a sook that traveling that far once a year was all too hard. Even though the Canberra team did it every second week, and still managed to be more than competitive in Sydney and win the Brisbane comp, twice.

So keep talking up the sheltered workshop mentality of Sydney Rugby. Just remember where we are in Sydney at the moment and ask yourself why is it worth protecting.

Rugby Central, further to your earlier post today, just a comment on another of your past posts. Junior rugby, and Shute Shield involvement - with you being Local you would be aware Allambie Jets are making a come back - Manly players and coach turned up rego days, Manly logo is appearing on the Jets Jersey. A good example of a Shute Shield club taking an interest, I'm sure the mums and dads will have their kids down at the village green over the coarse of the year.

 

[Glen Christini]

Am I missing something here? Is anyone actually suggesting getting rid of the lower grades? It is just the requirements on Clubs in terms of what teams they must have - it will still be up to clubs if they want 3rd and 4th Grade etc, and I assume most would still cater for these teams for the reasons stated here.

There is some logic to a split of aspirational v recreational rugby. colts 1sts and sometime 2nds as well as 1st grade and 2nd Grade are full of aspiring players - whilst the other grades are playing purely for fun. There is different training requirements etc. And yes undoubted the lower graders are always the heart and sole of the clubs, and would continue to be just that.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^ Suggestion of that coming from the ARU, in a report apparently published only in the Hard Copy edition of the SMH.