The case for Anthony Fainga'a to wear the Green and Gold

[gecko]

Ah Disco what positions did Hariis and Lucas play predominantly in their careers to this point?

What number did they have on in the final?

Lucas is a bit part player, feeling in gaps, full strength he wouldn't start for the Reds.

Harris has playmaking ability which brings it to 3, with Gits at 12 the wallabies would have 5.... Also Harris is a harder player than Gits, far more adept at shedding tackles and making the hard yards.

 

[Gnostic]

Gecko the statement was the Reds didn't have two play makers in the side. Harris is the classic NZ second 5 or 1st 5, and Lucas has played a lot of 10. As for your assertion that Lucas wouldn't make the starting side if everyone was fit, that is highly debatable. As much as I like Hynes and Morahan, Lucas was in hot form before he was injured and I doubt anybody would have quibbled if he had retained the start even if Hynes and Morhan had got back to full fitness. Much more likely that Morahan would have gone to 13 and Taps back to bench.

 

[Slim 293]

For mine we should be mimicking the Reds style in the backs. With Quade and Cooper running the show, they've been the difference for the Reds this season. That's been built on 2 solid defenders who do the basics well, run hard and tackle in the midfield. Fainga'a and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fit that bill.

We don't need more playmakers. We have the 2 best playmaking halves, why bring a third in. Not only that we'll have 2 playmaking ball runners in JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale. That's twice the options, why do we need a 5th option in Giteau? What other side in the world will be fielding 5 playmakers? most won't field 3. Too many cooks? Where's the balance?

McCabe is a far more high risk option, he doesn't have the same combination with Quade nor does he for mind have the same experience in that position or tackle as hard. There really aren't alot of tests left, McCabe is too big a gamble, that experiment won't happen. Either you want yet another playmaker at 12 and you go for JOC (James O'Connor) or Giteau or you want stability and physicality so you go for Fainga'a.

McCabe doesn't tackle as hard? I don't believe that...

And a lot of players don't have provincial combinations with Cooper... what does that have to do with anything?

You wouldn't partner Horan with Larkham? Lynagh with Farr-Jones?

You pick the best individuals and create a team around that...

 

[gecko]

Gecko the statement was the Reds didn't have two play makers in the side. Harris is the classic NZ second 5 or 1st 5, and Lucas has played a lot of 10. As for your assertion that Lucas wouldn't make the starting side if everyone was fit, that is highly debatable. As much as I like Hynes and Morahan, Lucas was in hot form before he was injured and I doubt anybody would have quibbled if he had retained the start even if Hynes and Morhan had got back to full fitness. Much more likely that Morahan would have gone to 13 and Taps back to bench.

Hynes is well in front of Lucas. If Hynes were fit he would've started every match and made the Wallabies squad. If he'd magically got fit a few games before the end of the season he'd have walked back in.

Full strength Reds:
15 Hynes
14 Ioane
13 Fainga'a
12 Harris
11 Davies

Lucas is a solid versatile players, that'll mean he'll almost always have a place in the game day 22 but he's not first string.

Either way though I'm still not seeing the need for even more playmakers for the Wallabies.

 

[Viking]

I believe we need a second playmaker because sides will try to (and like the Crusaders, sometimes succeed in) shutting Quade down. I'm not saying that in a cautious kind of way, in that we need a fallback option. I'm saying that it will open up opportunities for our second playmaker to cause damage. Imagine if the defence mobs Quade, and JOC (James O'Connor) is left unattended. Even Gits or Barnes. And then have Diggers, Mitchell, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Beale to wreak havoc outside. One thing we do have is an abundance of wide runners.

You make a good point in saying that teams will try and shut down Quade and will leave other play-makers unattended. But we already have 3 play makers that are certain to be in the back-line; Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor). Beale can enter the line from fullback any time and fill that role. If JOC (James O'Connor) is on the wing, there is no doubt he will be playing a roving role which means can also do the same. Another play-maker is not necessary. The remaining 3 players (apart from Genia) in the back-line should be hard runners and/or finishers. Centres need to be solid in defence.

 

[gecko]

McCabe doesn't tackle as hard? I don't believe that...

And a lot of players don't have provincial combinations with Cooper... what does that have to do with anything?

You wouldn't partner Horan with Larkham? Lynagh with Farr-Jones?

You pick the best individuals and create a team around that...

Not saying he doesn't tackle hard but Fainga'a tackles harder.

If Horan were at his peak and available I'd select him immediately regardless of whether he'd ever played a game with Quade. Fainga'a and McCabe wouldn't even enter my thought process.

The main players in contention have played with Cooper, it's time for the finishing touches and building towards the RWC.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

You make a good point in saying that teams will try and shut down Quade and will leave other play-makers unattended. But we already have 3 play makers that are certain to be in the back-line; Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor). Beale can enter the line from fullback any time and fill that role. If JOC (James O'Connor) is on the wing, there is no doubt he will be playing a roving role which means can also do the same. Another play-maker is not necessary. The remaining 3 players (apart from Genia) in the back-line should be hard runners and/or finishers. Centres need to be solid in defence.

Well with Barnes you get the solid defence *and* the passing (and kicking too). I just wish the bloke wasn't crook, because the whole issue of who we play in the centres would be moot in my eyes. You could almost play whoever you like at 13 out of Ant, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and McCabe, because all of our bases would be covered.

Alas, it appears that it won't be the case. Not for now anyway.

 

[Slim 293]

Not saying he doesn't tackle hard but Fainga'a tackles harder.

If Horan were at his peak and available I'd select him immediately regardless of whether he'd ever played a game with Quade. Fainga'a and McCabe wouldn't even enter my thought process.

The main players in contention have played with Cooper, it's time for the finishing touches and building towards the RWC.

But Fainga'a isn't exactly a main player in contention.

He's a squad player with a limited skillset who does his job well at Super level, but only plays in two positions that are covered by better players.

 

[tigerland12]

But Fainga'a isn't exactly a main player in contention.

He's a squad player with a limited skillset who does his job well at Super level, but only plays in two positions that are covered by better players.

Well to be honest, wouldn't his job be essentially the same for the Wallabies? I mean, the wallabies will have more strike power then the Reds did and more attacking options (Beale, Ioane, O'Connor, Mitchell, Davies, McCabe ect). Selecting Fainga'a at 13 would not have a negative impact on the side at all, he is easily the best defensive back in Australia, great defensive organiser as well.

That being said, I'd have Ashley-Cooper over him any day haha

 

[Athilnaur]

Re-cut some data from the Super Rugby comp to show work rates. Thought it might give an insight into who has been putting in yards this year.

Super Rugby Centre Work Rates

Sorry, don't know how to show as a picture Small caveat - Barbarian has already observed the 'penetration' rates count each tackle, even though a player might break more than one tackle per run. In the end I decided to leave that in, figuring a tackle break is a tackle break.

T12 - For my cheap 2cents Fainga'a is definitely not a better defender than TC, and I think tackle counts and tackle rates show it - setting aside my personal view that AF has defensive lapses and can hang back on tackles.

That said his tackle on Fruean during the final was superb and potentially a try saver.

 

[light]

Those stats suggest that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) shouldn't be anywhere near the Wallabies starting 15...

 

[Bruce Ross]

Re-cut some data from the Super Rugby comp to show work rates. Thought it might give an insight into who has been putting in yards this year.


Centre Work Rates

"Now you listen 'ere ... he's not the Messiah ..."

 

[Athilnaur]

"Now you listen 'ere ... he's not the Messiah ..."

 

[Richo]

Great stuff, Athilnaur. Makes for very interesting reading. What's your source for the base material?

 

[Athilnaur]

Richo> FF (Folau Fainga'a) Stats. Haven't been able to corroborate them other than to find they broadly align with Rugbystats.com

 

[Slim 293]

Those stats suggest that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) shouldn't be anywhere near the Wallabies starting 15...

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) played most of the year on the wing.

He actually looked pretty decent in the first few rounds at outside centre in a lousy team. It all went downhill from there.

 

[Athilnaur]

My sincere apologies to AF and a couple of others. I revisited my calculations and identified that the work rate effectiveness percentage was applied across the board, rather than the relevant rate against the relevant stat - tackling vs running. This essentially meant specialists weren't getting as much credit as they deserved. Fixed.

BR - doesn't change No 1 Aussie tho!

 

[qwerty51]

Those stats suggest that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) shouldn't be anywhere near the Wallabies starting 15...

Tell me about it.

So many people are up in arms regarding Vickerman not deserving his selection but not one mention of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

 

[Lee Grant]

So who is the best Oz centre based on those stats? Can you help me out here Bruce?

 

[Athilnaur]

Here's something of interest - from the article that prompted me to run those work rate stats; Graham Henry's comments re Robbie Freuan not being selected for ABs.

...But Henry reasserted his tough love attitude around Fruean. "Everybody sees Robbie as a very explosive player with the ball, but at this level you've got to have a huge work rate, a kick-chase game, work hard to get in the right defensive positions and make tons of tackles and get tons of touches. Robbie is a player of the future and has some real attributes but at this level you just can't afford not to have work rate."