The Impending Beale vs Folau vs Cooper debate

[A mutterer]

i'm not sure about mogg at this stage - will his confidence taken a belting after recent performances and criticisms?

 

[Brumbieman]

i'm not sure about mogg at this stage - will his confidence taken a belting after recent performances and criticisms?

He'll be fine. Having only one decent shoulder and playing against the Lions and New Zealand doesn't get much tougher in terms of a debut.

And aside from a couple of wayward kicks he was very good and will get better and better.

 

[A mutterer]

He'll be fine. Having only one decent shoulder and playing against the Lions and New Zealand doesn't get much tougher in terms of a debut.

And aside from a couple of wayward kicks he was very good and will get better and better.

i hope so - i'm looking forward to next season to see how he bounces back.

 

[Hoolly Doolly]

While everyone wonders where to fit Beale, Im wondering how the bloody hell the tahs fit all these players under the salary cap.

 

[Hawko]

Beale has to play his way back into the wider national squad, I cant see him in the starting Wallabies team for now. If he stays focussed he will get anopther opportunity. But Mogg will get better and already has beeter skills as a full bcack than Beale..

People have such short memories. Three years ago he and Dagg were regarded as the best two full backs in the world and most people had Kurtley in front of Dagg. To suggest that Mogg has better skills overall than Beale (I assume because he has a longer punt kick) is fanciful. Mogg has potential but he has never shown it at Wallaby level and he has been hot and cold at Super level. Beale has shown absolute class at Wallaby level - the "almost" try was some of the best individual skills you will ever see. Last couple of years he has been injured (much of it self-inflicted) but if he can regain the level he once had a position will have to be found somewhere for him. He is just that good.

 

[TOCC]

People have such short memories. Three years ago he and Dagg were regarded as the best two full backs in the world and most people had Kurtley in front of Dagg. To suggest that Mogg has better skills overall than Beale (I assume because he has a longer punt kick) is fanciful. Mogg has potential but he has never shown it at Wallaby level and he has been hot and cold at Super level. Beale has shown absolute class at Wallaby level - the "almost" try was some of the best individual skills you will ever see. Last couple of years he has been injured (much of it self-inflicted) but if he can regain the level he once had a position will have to be found somewhere for him. He is just that good.

Yes I agree with your comments, but let's not forget that Beale has also had his own shocking games at test level as well.

Test level rugby is about achieving a high standard of play and then maintaining that consistency, KB (Kurtley Beale) needs to firstly find that sort of form again and then secondly learn how to play to a high level of form consistently.

 

[wamberal]

Beale has obviously been affected by off-field problems. Nobody doubts his basic talent, surely.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

No doubt about his talent in my mind. The bloke can clearly play. My only real worry about him and is his decision making off the paddock. I'm hoping that he can mature a bit as a person over the next year or so (like QC (Quade Cooper) appears to have done) and stay out of the limelight for the wrong reasons. It'll help his footy as well.

 

[Brumbieman]

People have such short memories. Three years ago he and Dagg were regarded as the best two full backs in the world and most people had Kurtley in front of Dagg. To suggest that Mogg has better skills overall than Beale (I assume because he has a longer punt kick) is fanciful. Mogg has potential but he has never shown it at Wallaby level and he has been hot and cold at Super level. Beale has shown absolute class at Wallaby level - the "almost" try was some of the best individual skills you will ever see. Last couple of years he has been injured (much of it self-inflicted) but if he can regain the level he once had a position will have to be found somewhere for him. He is just that good.

No, no, no.

This is why our young players go off the rails, we hype them up and insist that they're soo good we HAVE to find a place. They then feel like they're above the team.

ATM, Beale is a Tahs bench player at best. He would need to prove his form and fitness, at the Tahs, before Cheika starts thinkin him a starting player, and the KB (Kurtley Beale) has to prove he's better than either Foley or Folau, to earn his starting position.

THEN, you start asking if he's good enough to regain that gold jersey, or if Folau game plane more. etc etc

He has to actually EARN it, and work his arse off. If KB (Kurtley Beale) had the drive/focus/attitude of someone like McCabe/Fainga'a etc, players who are in no way especially talented, but made the Wallabies off the back of sheer bloody mindedness and attitude.....wow. Imagine if Beiber and Beale had that attitude?

They're only going to get it, by realising that they're not invincible and that they will not be missed if they don't shape up.

 

[Scrubber2050]

If Folau AND Cooper continue playing and improving the way they have in 2013 then 15 and 10 are both out of reach of Kurtley as a starting position.

However, injuries always play an important part of the game,. Until then KB (Kurtley Beale) should have splinters from the pine

 

[swingpass]

No, no, no.

This is why our young players go off the rails, we hype them up and insist that they're soo good we HAVE to find a place. They then feel like they're above the team.

ATM, Beale is a Tahs bench player at best. He would need to prove his form and fitness, at the Tahs, before Cheika starts thinkin him a starting player, and the KB (Kurtley Beale) has to prove he's better than either Foley or Folau, to earn his starting position.

THEN, you start asking if he's good enough to regain that gold jersey, or if Folau game plane more. etc etc

He has to actually EARN it, and work his arse off. If KB (Kurtley Beale) had the drive/focus/attitude of someone like McCabe/Fainga'a etc, players who are in no way especially talented, but made the Wallabies off the back of sheer bloody mindedness and attitude...wow. Imagine if Beiber and Beale had that attitude?

They're only going to get it, by realising that they're not invincible and that they will not be missed if they don't shape up.

absolutely totally agree
IMO the worst thing that happened to KB (Kurtley Beale) was being rushed into the wobs for the B&L tour. he should have stayed in rehab.
no player has a mortgage on the jersey
those on the outside have to strive to get back in. ironically i think QC (Quade Cooper)'s banishment has given him that hunger to wear "yellow" and not take it for granted. possibly the best thing Robbie Deans did for australian rugby.
whats the saying, to stay number 1, practice like you are still number 2

 

[wamberal]

If Folau AND Cooper continue playing and improving the way they have in 2013 then 15 and 10 are both out of reach of Kurtley as a starting position.

However, injuries always play an important part of the game,. Until then KB (Kurtley Beale) should have splinters from the pine

Totally disagree about Folau. I hope that Cheika plays him in the centres. If that turns out the way that I think it might, Link will have to eat his words about Folau staying at 15.

I might be a bit dim, but why on earth would you not play your most brilliant attacking player in the line? Yes, he does do kick returns well. But we will never, ever beat the Blacks on the back of kick returns, they are just too well organised for that. We need to make breaks much closer in.

The Blacks will kick to Folau, and they will turn him over. The weakness in Folau's game at the moment is that he just not know what to do in contact. Paradoxically, I reckon contact in the centres is a lot easier to come to grips with, than contact as a full back. Izzy can get isolated too easily. There will be no easy meat pies against the top teams from kick returns, or maybe one or two a season. We will have to do a lot more to earn the wins. That means we must play our best attacking running weapon in the position where he can do most sustained damage, without being at risk of losing possession in a vulnerable position.

I will bet London to a brick on that Izzy will play in the centres for the Wobbs this season, and next.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

While everyone wonders where to fit Beale, Im wondering how the bloody hell the tahs fit all these players under the salary cap.

Ground hire fees didn't you know...


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[dudebudstud]

I'm a big AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fan. He has been the most consistent Wallaby backline player for years. He rarely has a bad game, runs hard, defends hard, attacks the breakdown like a 7. He might not have the pace, the flash or X factor of some other players, but you can expect a strong performance from him every game.

My question is where does AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fit in a Wallaby backline with fully fit and available players?

12? Do we break up the combo of Cooper and To'omua that is developing?
13? Does Kuridrani then sit out?
11/14? Is he a better winger than Cummins, Speight, or even JOC (James O'Connor)
15? That would mean leaving out Folau

 

[dudebudstud]

Totally disagree about Folau. I hope that Cheika plays him in the centres. If that turns out the way that I think it might, Link will have to eat his words about Folau staying at 15.

I might be a bit dim, but why on earth would you not play your most brilliant attacking player in the line? Yes, he does do kick returns well. But we will never, ever beat the Blacks on the back of kick returns, they are just too well organised for that. We need to make breaks much closer in.

The Blacks will kick to Folau, and they will turn him over. The weakness in Folau's game at the moment is that he just not know what to do in contact. Paradoxically, I reckon contact in the centres is a lot easier to come to grips with, than contact as a full back. Izzy can get isolated too easily. There will be no easy meat pies against the top teams from kick returns, or maybe one or two a season. We will have to do a lot more to earn the wins. That means we must play our best attacking running weapon in the position where he can do most sustained damage, without being at risk of losing possession in a vulnerable position.

I will bet London to a brick on that Izzy will play in the centres for the Wobbs this season, and next.

I think Folau in the centres is a bit premature. The thing that makes him such a threat and a brilliant player in the back 3 is that he needs the space to build his attack from. At fullback he can roam and insert himself at any point of the attack. He can be an inside runner, he can push out to the wing, etc
If he were at 12 the defense would be up on him too fast and smother him. As well at 12 he would have to develop a structured distribution/passing game that I don't know that he has on the same level as To'omua. I guess it depends what style of 12 the Wallabies try to play. Do they want a second reciever/playmaker or do they want a crash suck defenders in type of 12, in the style of Nonu or SBW.

He might develop as a 13, that would give him more space to move, but I think the reason he flourishes is the space playing at FB affords him.

 

[USARugger]

I'm a big AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fan. He has been the most consistent Wallaby backline player for years. He rarely has a bad game, runs hard, defends hard, attacks the breakdown like a 7. He might not have the pace, the flash or X factor of some other players, but you can expect a strong performance from him every game.

My question is where does AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fit in a Wallaby backline with fully fit and available players?

12? Do we break up the combo of Cooper and To'omua that is developing?
13? Does Kuridrani then sit out?
11/14? Is he a better winger than Cummins, Speight, or even JOC (James O'Connor)
15? That would mean leaving out Folau

He's just nearly 30, he's getting phased out like most backs his age would. He'll make phenomenally versatile bench cover through the 2015 RWC. We don't need to be changing anything to 'find' space for him, you put the best 15 players you have on the field.

 

[Braveheart81]

While everyone wonders where to fit Beale, Im wondering how the bloody hell the tahs fit all these players under the salary cap.

I'm guessing that Beale was signed for very little on the basis that no other franchises wanted him.

The Waratahs have had quite a lot of players on Wallaby top ups (which will decrease over the next year or so) so that would have helped them keep more of their players.

 

[chequebalance]

I don't really care where they play as long as we are winning.. If that means someone else plays 15 and Izzy goes to 13 so be it. If we are winning with him at 15 leave him there.

 

[TOCC]

I'm guessing that Beale was signed for very little on the basis that no other franchises wanted him.

The Waratahs have had quite a lot of players on Wallaby top ups (which will decrease over the next year or so) so that would have helped them keep more of their players.

I think its highly unlikely that Beale signed for "very little", when teams say they aren't interested in a player like Beale its usually because he is charging too much for the potential risk he carries. He would still be commanding a Super Rugby pay check of $400'000 plus an ARU top-up at the Tahs though.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm still struggling to get my head around how Folau is apparently not getting the ball enough at fullback, where he is popping up at various positions in the line, yet if he is at 13 stuck outside a 12 he will get his hands on the ball more?

Would you not get the exact same effect if he played at 15, and took the ball off the 12 in the line, yet maximise the best fullback under the high ball also, whilst giving him opportunities in broken play?