The Wallabies Thread

[TOCC]

It seems to be that Australia coaches just need to go through the motions and pass through the gates without displaying any real success at the various levels along the way.

What has Grey done besides be mates with Cheika and work with at the Tahs, Cron has had success in the Shute Shield and the Rays went pretty well, but I would have liked to have seen more time in each of those roles:

 

[TOCC]

The defensive patterns were quite poor. Remember all the overlaps that opposition teams were creating and the criticism levelled at Henry Speight for getting lost in the 13 Channel? (and Sefa Naivalu suffered the same when he came on). It was only the covering defense that kept the scorelines under some sort of control.

How much of that was poor decision making form Speight, the other 13's didn't seem to struggle as much as Speight defensively.

 

[fatprop]

The defensive patterns were quite poor. Remember all the overlaps that opposition teams were creating and the criticism levelled at Henry Speight for getting lost in the 13 Channel? (and Sefa Naivalu suffered the same when he came on). It was only the covering defense that kept the scorelines under some sort of control.

But that is what is supposed to happen, you play a compressed line and trust the cover defense if they do get on the outside.

13 defense is really difficult, there was a great highlight real of Mortlock's work - it is all about the decision making, when to come forward, when to drift, when to back off (in a bled he once went 20m backwards before committing and closing down the attack).

The same with defensive shooters, they are never expected to convert every tackle, they are there to disrupt the attack and keep it behind the advantage line. A lot of Hunts "misses" were from shooting, as are Hooper's "misses" playing the same role at the Tahs and Douglas's effective role at the Tahs in 2014.

They have to play their role and trust the scramble.

Play that compressed defensive line and you must trust the cover defense

 

[wamberal]

Aaah, cover defense. I still remember the first rugby book I ever read, written by Danie Craven. It was in the school library, amazingly enough.


I was mesmerised by his diagrams which explained which lines each player should run in attacking or defensive situations.


In defense, the 8 man always headed for the openside corner-post.

 

[Quick Hands]

It seems to be that Australia coaches just need to go through the motions and pass through the gates without displaying any real success at the various levels along the way.

What has Grey done besides be mates with Cheika and work with at the Tahs, Cron has had success in the Shute Shield and the Rays went pretty well, but I would have liked to have seen more time in each of those roles:

You've hit upon one of the founational problems. None of these guys want to do the hard yards anymore.

Rod McQueen - first coaching role Warringah 4th grade (and won them a premiership).

Bob Dwyer - long time coaching grade at Randwick (won 4 first grade premierships and was always there watching all 4 grades)

 

[wamberal]

Both Dwyer and McQueen were staunch clubmen, although McQueen did have one season with the Mighty Woods as well, just to top him off a bit!!!

I played against Dwyer in twos.

 

[Braveheart81]

Personally I think it is excuses, and at this point I feel handing excuses to this mob does us no service at all. What was it, we played rank 5, 10 and 15? But we're going to argue over which points should count against the defence coach and which dont? Really?

Just wait for the black jumpers.

Grey has no proven ability at Soup. The strangeness is only matched by an attack coach who has little to boast about in terms of attack at Soup level. Is someone getting ready to explain statistics away from Bernie?

The set up as far as I can tell (reading the analysts) is conservative in attack re the forwards (pod formation matching like to like), and unusual in defence in the backs (set up lines that open channels for the opposition).

The stat adjusters might not like it but I'll be focusing on "goose" till something convincing happens to the contrary.

Little reason to suspect this is immanent.

Isn't it analysis?

Saying that dropping the ball or getting charged down on our exit isn't Grey's fault is not an attempt to make excuses for what happened, it is an attempt to get to the core of the issue and apportion blame correctly.

So we are in a position where just about every kick off is going to go towards the left corner because we don't have a left footed kicker. Teams know that unless we get a lot of time off the kickoff we probably won't clear it immediately and will instead shift it to the right off phase play to clear it. The opposition knows that when the ball is spread across the field it probably isn't to counterattack from inside our 22 and they can push up pretty hard knowing that they are reasonably safe applying as much pressure as possible.

You'd assume that the exit plays are the domain of Larkham and Cheika. Clearly execution needs to improve because you have to get it right and can't just drop the ball cold. The pertinent question though is how much value would a left footer add to this team, who are the left footed options out there and how much of a step down in other areas would selecting that player create.

This is certainly a major reason why Drew Mitchell got selected in 2015 and 2016 at times when most didn't consider his general play as putting him in our top two wingers.

Isn't Grey's proven ability in Super Rugby that he was the defensive coach of a team that won Super Rugby? Certainly things have gone backwards rapidly for both the Waratahs and Wallabies in defence since the RWC and that needs to be rectified. I would expect he has a season as Wallabies defensive coach with no Super Rugby duties to turn things around or he will be replaced.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The mists of time are wont to cloud our recollections of reality. Nathan Grey as a player had just about the worst pair of hands I've seen on a professional rugby player. There, either JB or I have a clouded memory.

 

[fatprop]

The mists of time are wont to cloud our recollections of reality. Nathan Grey as a player had just about the worst pair of hands I've seen on a professional rugby player. There, either JB or I have a clouded memory.

clouded memory mate or you haven't seen much professional rugby

 

[Beer Baron]

clouded memory mate or you haven't seen much professional rugby

I remember him as just being a hard crash ball runner?? And hard defender

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[Strewthcobber]

What does the coach of a Shute Shield or NRC team get paid? Do they even get paid at all?

Can see why aspiring coaches want to get onto a professional team as soon as they can.

 

[Quick Hands]

What does the coach of a Shute Shield or NRC team get paid? Do they even get paid at all?

Can see why aspiring coaches want to get onto a professional team as soon as they can.

There's no shortcut to becoming a good coach though.

 

[Braveheart81]

There's no shortcut to becoming a good coach though.

It's a pretty different pathway in the professional game though.

I don't think we're ever likely to see a coach starting out in lower grades of club rugby and work their way up to being a first grade coach all the while managing a career as their 9-5.

Seemingly across just about every sport, professionalism greatly increases the propensity for former players to get into coaching after their career finishes and it is far harder for someone who hasn't had a connection to the game at the elite level to get into that space.

 

[wamberal]

John Manenti is an example of a good club coach who did not want to make a professional career out of coaching.

 

[Joe Blow]

The mists of time are wont to cloud our recollections of reality. Nathan Grey as a player had just about the worst pair of hands I've seen on a professional rugby player. There, either JB or I have a clouded memory.

But his tackling was bordering on legendary. Tough as nails and hit way above his weight. He was an out and out bosh merchant who almost always got you across the gain line as a centre but also his defense was water tight.
I played with a bloke just like him and it was very reassuring to have him inside of me.

 

[Twoilms]

It's a pretty different pathway in the professional game though.

I don't think we're ever likely to see a coach starting out in lower grades of club rugby and work their way up to being a first grade coach all the while managing a career as their 9-5.

Seemingly across just about every sport, professionalism greatly increases the propensity for former players to get into coaching after their career finishes and it is far harder for someone who hasn't had a connection to the game at the elite level to get into that space.

It's possible though. In Europe there are grades of coaching qualifications for Football that you can just sign up to learn. Like a trade or professional qualification. You know, professionalism.

Australian rugby never really made the jump to professionalism.

 

[barbarian]

Grey has no proven ability at Soup.
.

Grey has plenty of proven ability at Super level. He won a title as defence coach, and then took the Tahs to 2nd on the ladder the following year.

He then took us to the RWC Final, where our defence was a standout feature.

The subsequent drop-off in defence at the Tahs is staggering, and he certainly needs to be accountable for that. However, his track record IMO allows him some slack and a chance to turn it around.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

It's possible though. In Europe there are grades of coaching qualifications for Football that you can just sign up to learn. Like a trade or professional qualification. You know, professionalism.

Australian rugby never really made the jump to professionalism.

There are multiple grades of coaching courses available from the SMART rugby one which is online and free and is a basic starter for people wanting to get involved and then levels 1 through 4 which go from foundation level to performance.

It's just not a realistic pathway these days that someone gets involved coaching colts or fifth grade and then works their way up to coaching a national side.

In most cases a coach is going to be a former elite player who then gets an assistant role with a pro side to begin their professional coaching career.

If you look at European football, it's not like there are a multitude of managers who start out in the lowest divisions of the worst leagues and work their way up to coaching Serie A or Premier League etc. Most are also former players who got a pretty senior appointment early in their management career.

 

[stoff]

Grey has plenty of proven ability at Super level. He won a title as defence coach, and then took the Tahs to 2nd on the ladder the following year.

He then took us to the RWC Final, where our defence was a standout feature.

The subsequent drop-off in defence at the Tahs is staggering, and he certainly needs to be accountable for that. However, his track record IMO allows him some slack and a chance to turn it around.
.

He also had five years as player/coach in first and second level rugby in Japan and three years at the Rebels. He has been coaching for 13 years at various levels.


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[Twoilms]

Yeah, i wasn't trying to say that it was common but it is possible. Good example is Andre Villas Boas. Never played, managed Tottenham and Chelsea (kinda poorly, admittedly). Plus, even if you don't make it to those heady heights in football, there are plenty of paid jobs for a middling or low level coach. Shit, even Bristol City FC had paid coaches and they were third division at the time.

Edit: my point is that no reasonable person would try to become a coach if there aren't paid positions available. Which is pretty obviously why there are no rugby coaches in Australia.