The Wallabies Thread

[Braveheart81]

Yeah, i wasn't trying to say that it was common but it is possible. Good example is Andre Villas Boas. Never played, managed Tottenham and Chelsea (kinda poorly, admittedly). Plus, even with if you don't make it to those heady heights in football, there are plenty of paid jobs for a middling or low level coach. Shit, even Bristol City FC had paid coaches and they were third division at the time.

Edit: my point is that no reasonable person would try to become a coach if there aren't paid positions available. Which is pretty obviously why there are no rugby coaches in Australia.

That's the big problem with rugby being a relatively small sport in Australia.

There aren't really the pathways to become an elite coach in Australia although we are working on changing that (which is also attracting plenty of criticism).

Look at every elite professional Australian coach in the last decade or so. They all have spent significant time in Europe. Cheika, McKenzie, Taylor etc. That essentially has been the only viable pathway to actually becoming a good coach.

There's heaps of criticism about the coaches who haven't spent a lot of time offshore getting promoted from assistant roles/NRC head coach roles such as Nick Stiles, Dan McKellar etc. The reality though is that we need this pathway. I don't think it is a good plan to say that the only way you can become a decent rugby coach in Australia is to leave the place.

We need to be create the right structures so coaches can improve through various levels and work their way up to being quality professional coaches. It's certainly going to take some time to mature but I think it's the right way to proceed.

 

[fatprop]

There's no shortcut to becoming a good coach though.

and there is no "one" pathway, coaching a amateur SS rugby side is way different from coaching a professional side.

 

[Twoilms]

These coaching pathways you talk about implementing, should have existed the second the sport turned 'professional'. The reality is, we have a recreational sport for all tiers bar Super and International Rugby and we sit around wondering why we don't have any good coaches, players or a competitive competition. It's ridiculous.

 

[Braveheart81]

These coaching pathways you talk about implementing, should have existed the second the sport turned 'professional'. The reality is, we have a recreational sport for all tiers bar Super and International Rugby and we sit around wondering why we don't have any good coaches, players or a competitive competition. It's ridiculous.

Yes, of course that's the case.

We can't change the past though.

 

[Twoilms]

Yes, of course that's the case.

We can't change the past though.

Yeah but we can complain about it lots

 

[Quick Hands]

and there is no "one" pathway, coaching a amateur SS rugby side is way different from coaching a professional side.

I never said that there was one pathway. I said that there are no short cuts. Having former players go straight into elite coaching roles hasn't proven to be a particularly successful model.

Yes, coaching an amateur side has some differences to coaching at the elite level. But, the fundamentals of the game are the same, the man management issues are similar and the ability to plan, prepare and analyse are similar. All coache are going to make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. All coaches should be constantly adjusting their approach to strategy, training etc. At the lower levels of the game things happen more slowly, there is less pressure and mistakes can often be corrected much more easily than at the professional level.

This doesn't mean that every coach needs to start coaching 4th grade and work their way up one rung at a time, What I'm suggesting that a couple of years spent learning the ropes at a lower level will stand the career coach in good stead. The same applies to referees for much the same reasons.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Grey has plenty of proven ability at Super level. He won a title as defence coach, and then took the Tahs to 2nd on the ladder the following year.

He then took us to the RWC Final, where our defence was a standout feature.

The subsequent drop-off in defence at the Tahs is staggering, and he certainly needs to be accountable for that. However, his track record IMO allows him some slack and a chance to turn it around.
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At the Tahs, I'd understand Baa baa, but giving him slack at the Wallabies is a very big risk atm.

 

[dru]

Grey has plenty of proven ability at Super level. He won a title as defence coach, and then took the Tahs to 2nd on the ladder the following year.

He then took us to the RWC Final, where our defence was a standout feature.

The subsequent drop-off in defence at the Tahs is staggering, and he certainly needs to be accountable for that. However, his track record IMO allows him some slack and a chance to turn it around.
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I'll give Grey the 2014 season - an awesome achievement that should have been career defining. 2015 RWC I am less convinced about - increasingly seems to be a dead cat bounce on the back of Cheika morale building. But let's show some grace and allow it.

I do not in any way see why some "slack and a chance to bring it around" applies at all. Grey has shown dismal defence performance, he is part of the Aus system that has seen the de-skilling and de-fitnessing of the sport in Australia. Like Bernie, his opportunity for some slack was back in Super Rugby, not being offered a full time (or part time either for that matter) role at international level.

I think that rugby fans for far too long have been "giving slack". This should end. Grey (he is not on his own) should be soundly criticised for evident incompetence. His media release on "this is an easy fix" should not be forgotten, especially when mingled with his his current media delivery of "I want all fans to share my love of defence". He has not been capable of showing this love for a solid two years. YES, we would love to be able to love our defence.

The sooner we hold these guys to account the better.

 

[farva]

These coaching pathways you talk about implementing, should have existed the second the sport turned 'professional'. The reality is, we have a recreational sport for all tiers bar Super and International Rugby and we sit around wondering why we don't have any good coaches, players or a competitive competition. It's ridiculous.

Well, that exists in all sports. There is a line between professionalism and amateurism. We try and bridge that gap by things like the semi pro NRC and the top Sydney clubs are also semi pro in that they pay their top players.

 

[TOCC]

Yes, of course that's the case.

We can't change the past though.

You need to be able to recognise and acknowledge past mistakes to effect change today, Australian Rugby should identify coaches with potential and put them on contracts just like they do with players. They don't have to be massive don't contracts, maybe a pool of 5 or 6 coaches who coach at varying levels.

Someone like Cron could have been kept on an ARU contract, coach the Rays and U20s and moonlighted as a development coach inbetween those seasons. Australians coaching pathways are even worse then the players pathways. Accepting a contract to a Super Rugby team shouldn't be seen as the only option for been a professional coach or progressing through the ranks.

Look at New Zealand, Dave Rennie spent 6 years in the ITM Cup, Jamie Joseph spent 7 years, Chris Boyd 6 years, Tana Umaga 5 years... they've all earned their stripes and learnt from more senior coaches.. in Australia, former players get given coaching gigs without having first displayed their worth at lower levels

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think the NRC will help. We should be pursuing that as a way of developing the skills of our young coaches.

 

[Gnostic]

Again with the NRC as a development pathway. Half a dozen games is a massive development opportunity for coaches and players.

And yes I know about the arguments about giving it time to build, we've been over that ground so many times, and I stand by my assessment that even if Australian Rugby had the time and money needed for it to get its legs I just don't think it would.

The fact remains Australian Rugby doesn't have the better part of the decade that would be required to take this competition to something that actually has the length and depth of competition to be developmental.

 

[dru]

^^^
Just for me to understand Gnostic, am I right that you'd instead of the NRC, promote the top Premier Grade teams for a National comp? Thoughts on what this would look like?

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^
Just for me to understand Gnostic, am I right that you'd instead of the NRC, promote the top Premier Grade teams for a National comp? Thoughts on what this would look like?

I think that way back before the NRC I suggested something like:

The top 4 SS clubs, top 2 Brisbane Premier clubs, Canberra premiers and combined teams from Perth and Melbourne.

If you boil it down though, this is essentially what the NRC was when it first started except that you would have established clubs playing instead of joint ventures. The only real change has been the demise of the Stars.

Both models have pros and cons, but in terms of practicalities there isn't really that much difference and I couldn't honestly see either being much better or much worse than the other option.

I actually like the Rays model which seems to capture the best of both worlds. It's a pity that other clubs were less inclinced to suport the NRC concept in this way.

 

[amirite]

I think that way back before the NRC I suggested something like:

The top 4 SS clubs, top 2 Brisbane Premier clubs, Canberra premiers and combined teams from Perth and Melbourne.

If you boil it down though, this is essentially what the NRC was when it first started except that you would have established clubs playing instead of joint ventures. The only real change has been the demise of the Stars.

Both models have pros and cons, but in terms of practicalities there isn't really that much difference and I couldn't honestly see either being much better or much worse than the other option.

I actually like the Rays model which seems to capture the best of both worlds. It's a pity that other clubs were less inclinced to suport the NRC concept in this way.

What you've said is fair, but I honesty think the current representative model that has the appearance of a "fair go to players of all clubs" (even if one can argue it's not completely fair) is superior to a model that really benefits the "haves". I would say it's mostly fair and good players can get a go regardless of where they're playing.

Lets remember, this is a development comp first and foremost and not a champion's league (which would have its own appeal, but would be a different beast).

 

[Braveheart81]

I think that way back before the NRC I suggested something like:

The top 4 SS clubs, top 2 Brisbane Premier clubs, Canberra premiers and combined teams from Perth and Melbourne.

The obvious problem with this is that the more successful this competition is, the more damage it does to the Shute Shield and other club competitions around Australia.

 

[barbarian]

Exactly BH. The 'Champions League' concept would run clubs like West Harbour, Parramatta and Penrith even more into the ground.

If that became a major recruiting ground for Super sides, if you were an aspiring young player you'd be MAD to play for anyone outside those top sides.

I think it would totally decimate Sydney club rugby, because the ripple effect you'd get in 2nds, 3rds, 4ths and colts would be enormous.
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[fatprop]

I would prefer two sides per Super franchise for the NRC

 

[TOCC]

Exactly BH. The 'Champions League' concept would run clubs like West Harbour, Parramatta and Penrith even more into the ground.

If that became a major recruiting ground for Super sides, if you were an aspiring young player you'd be MAD to play for anyone outside those top sides.

I think it would totally decimate Sydney club rugby, because the ripple effect you'd get in 2nds, 3rds, 4ths and colts would be enormous.
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As an outsider looking in, the Shute Shield has managed to the run Paramatta and Penrith into the ground all on their own. Between the two teams they've managed only 2 wins from 24 games and a points differential of over -800 for 2017.

 

[amirite]

I would prefer two sides per Super franchise for the NRC

It would make sense, but would be difficult to divide up fairly.