Tier 3.5 - An Alternative NRC

[Gnostic]

Despite the numbers being released in the annual report?







For all to see?







Even members of the public?









Look, Pappy was always an annoying, favourites-playing prick in his time as an ABC commentator. Nothing is going to change there. Not for him, not for Poido, not for any of the "glory daze" boys who think Sydney Club rugby is just fine to deliver Waratahs Wallaby teams some World Cup glory.



Despite the two decades of professionalism.



Yeah. Let's go back to that.



Tell you what fellas: you want it so much, stick your hands up for ARU CEO and fight the cesspool of politics that you and your ilk are happy to swim in, and make it happen.



Hopefully your years of business acumen mean someone like Fox or one of the FTA networks don't laugh too hard when you throw your toys out of the pram.

Maybe have a look at the accounts Pfitzy before going all .

The numbers don't stack up to what Bill said/implied.

I don't think Papworth et al proposal/threat has any chance or ever did, but I do understand where it is coming from. Simply a fundamental rebellion against top down funding systems. You and others don't like the overt nature of what has happened, but understand this is what happens when those in power talk a lot about listening and continue on their pathway with no consideration for stakeholders views. When those stake holders hit back its somehow their fault. Just like Brexit - if the idiotic politicians had truly listened and addressed the growth of inequity the vote wouldn't have ended in the result it did. It like this is a rejection of the management and their vision because they are not trusted.

The fact is it is impossible to trust somebody who makes statements like Pulver has but are easily and fundamentally disproved by their own figures.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Gnostic, I think you mean that the ARU revenue and expinditure items are broken down in the way that suits you for this argument.

If the ARU rolled all game development and community rugby expenditure into one single item, then how would we know for example what the ARU entity overheads are? Because salaries, offices, funding, tv broadcast subsidisation, etc would all be lumped into one item?

Why is it impossible to trust Pulver, yet Papworth's history of being liberal with the truth not a barrier to you trusting him?

Is it because he uses language like "we'all still be setting up grounds" in his letters so he must be a real down to earth, knockabout bloke? We do that too!!! He's just like us!!!

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic, I think you mean that the ARU revenue and expinditure items are broken down in the way that suits you for this argument.



If the ARU rolled all game development and community rugby expenditure into one single item, then how would we know for example what the ARU entity overheads are? Because salaries, offices, funding, tv broadcast subsidisation, etc would all be lumped into one item?



Why is it impossible to trust Pulver, yet Papworth's history of being liberal with the truth not a barrier to you trusting him?



Is it because he uses language like "we'all still be setting up grounds" in his letters so he must be a real down to earth, knockabout bloke? We do that too!!! He's just like us!!!

Who said I trust Papworth? Where did I say it? I said I would accept his version before Pulvers. That is it. Trust is a bit harder to come by.

I know I certainly don't trust Pulver. After Patston and the Brumbies he is not worthy of it and anything he says I look at with scepticism until it proves otherwise.

As for the number if you have to add little bits and pieces from here and there through the report, it is designed to obfuscate and hide the truth because the management can say whatever figure they want and it cannot be disputed because nobody knows.

 

[Train Without a Station]

So you trust Papworth more than Pulver......

As for your example, well you could say the same about the total ARU entity expenditure if you reported it your way.

So no matter what, somebody will complain. And you can be sure that some will Ben the sameness people either way.

 

[I like to watch]

Gnostic, I think you mean that the ARU revenue and expinditure items are broken down in the way that suits you for this argument.

If the ARU rolled all game development and community rugby expenditure into one single item, then how would we know for example what the ARU entity overheads are? Because salaries, offices, funding, tv broadcast subsidisation, etc would all be lumped into one item?

Why is it impossible to trust Pulver, yet Papworth's history of being liberal with the truth not a barrier to you trusting him?

Is it because he uses language like "we'all still be setting up grounds" in his letters so he must be a real down to earth, knockabout bloke? We do that too!!! He's just like us!!!

I don't understand why you have a problem, when people are perplexed that the ARU report says $2M & the CEO says $9M.

The published report is an extract,the ARU says the detailed report is available upon request at no charge.
Maybe we should all get the detailed report to see if the further and better particulars give clarity,before we continue to argue who might be full of shit.

But I still maintain the variance mentioned above,should not exist.
Extract or not.

 

[Heavyd]

Problem with NRC is that junior and suburban grassroots is taxed to fund it. Clearly not sustainable when only 400 people turn up to the final.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No it's not.

The NRC is funded by Buildcorp and Fox Sports.

 

[wamberal]

Problem with NRC is that junior and suburban grassroots is taxed to fund it. Clearly not sustainable when only 400 people turn up to the final.

I think you would have to take all revenue sources into account before pontificating about the future.

 

[Pfitzy]

Maybe have a look at the accounts Pfitzy before going all .

Nope. Complete waste of time for me. It all starts out as maths, then gets dressed up in interpretation.

My point was: how can Pulver pull a shifty if the hymn book both he and Pappy are reading from is the same?

If they try any accounting tricks, then its all there in black and white.

The problem when you say "Pulver is cooking the books because creative accounting" anyone else can just as easily say "Papworth is dressing up the figures the way he wants them because creative accounting".


FACT: club rugby has delivered us zero world cup wins, despite being our second domestic tier, for 16 years since 1999. The end.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Nope. Complete waste of time for me. It all starts out as maths, then gets dressed up in interpretation.

My point was: how can Pulver pull a shifty if the hymn book both he and Pappy are reading from is the same?

If they try any accounting tricks, then its all there in black and white.

The problem when you say "Pulver is cooking the books because creative accounting" anyone else can just as easily say "Papworth is dressing up the figures the way he wants them because creative accounting".


FACT: club rugby has delivered us zero world cup wins, despite being our second domestic tier, for 16 years since 1999. The end.

What I am struggling with criticism from people like Papworth is he is anti super rugby, anti nrc and in the era of professional ranks where or what professional model is he advocating. As all I hear he his bleating about amateur clubs being shafted but by his anti stance towards any professional teams I am really not sure that helps clubs unless he has a realistic alternative professional model. Yet all I hear from him is criticism of current professional rugby models without any alternatives.

I hence don't think Mr Papworth is a friend of rugby. He did go to league so perhaps why his interests are so narrow as he only does / says what is best for him and his interests which at present is club rugby. Suspect if he he became chairman of a super rugby club he would then be telling us super rugby is the best thing since slice bread and how super rugby clubs are being shafted.

Sorry but I think Papworth is poison for moving rugby forward in this country and does not serve the game well with the disunity and division his stupid letters and comments do. With the challenges rugby face now more than ever is the time factions and rugby interests need to work together to solve current woes and move the game forward in a consultative and constructive manner.



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[Gnostic]

Nope. Complete waste of time for me. It all starts out as maths, then gets dressed up in interpretation.



My point was: how can Pulver pull a shifty if the hymn book both he and Pappy are reading from is the same?



If they try any accounting tricks, then its all there in black and white.



The problem when you say "Pulver is cooking the books because creative accounting" anyone else can just as easily say "Papworth is dressing up the figures the way he wants them because creative accounting".





FACT: club rugby has delivered us zero world cup wins, despite being our second domestic tier, for 16 years since 1999. The end.

FACT - few Wallabies spend any time in Club rugby since 1999. Some play for the Wallabies before even getting to club rugby. Funny how the skills of the players have gone down as they haven't done the week to week grind.

The difference is Pulver actually has control of the books, and Papworth has directly quoted the number from them. Of course Pulver will say its wrong because X, but since they are his books it is him that is compromised.

In any event as I have posted numerous times, this year's books are only the latest chapter in the story and the situation comes back to trust. A leader needs trust to be able to take stakeholders with them to execute a plan. Like it or not the Shute SHield clubs and the vilified ones its popular now to hate are stakeholders and the ARU lost their trust and engagement a few years ago. What has Pulver done to win that back? It is actually his responsibility as a leader.

But then IMO he is a shit leader for the reasons I have outlined previously, just not as poor as Flowers or JON MkII

 

[wamberal]

I have thought for a long way that our young "stars" should play club rugby for a struggling club, instead of for Sydney University et al.



Eat shite, lose some games, learn how to cover for your mates. Toughen up, in other words.

 

[Train Without a Station]

FACT - Since 1999 all international players for tier 1 nations gave increasingly spent less time in amateur structures.

Australia has not swam against the stream in this. If anything they have hung on longer than anybody to it.

Defensive intensity has also increased significantly.

Don't pretend Wallaby shortcomings are because they aren't regularly playing against blokes that have to go to work on Monday.

And even if it was still like that. It wouldn't be the same.

Due to professionalism and increasing money available in Europe, now many of the best fringe players ply their trade overseas instead of the Shute Shield.

So now the best uncontracted players are gone.

Due to more money in the NRL, many players who previously plied their trade in club rugby have left for full time offers in the NRL.

So now a few more are gone.

Then there's the change in demographics. The average age of teams has dropped from late 20s to early 20s. With increased work place competitiveness, players who previously played to their 30s, see they haven't made it and focus on careers instead.

Also with the increasing in housing unaffordability people need to spend more time focusing on work to get ahead or work greater hours. So more move on from playing. How many could afford no own a home anywhere near any of the current clubs when compared to 1999?

So you can harp back to the good old days all you want and say how much better that worked. But while you're sitting there wishing we were still in 1995 you completely ignore that everybody else is living in 2016 around us and all the wishing and pretended Ng in the world isn't going to change that.

 

[Gnostic]

TWAS as usual you ramble on and state the bleeding obvious. The FACT remains that skill execution levels have declined in our PROFESSIONAL players despite them being professional and paid to play and train. Why? Coaching partly. Gym time partly. Mainly lack of time learning and doing those skills over and over, at a lower level than professional level.

I actually look for something that actually worked. Fine you don't want the clubs. Replace the system with something that works. I finally got an admission that the NRC isn't for development which was a ridiculous assertion to begin with for a 8 week competition. So we replace club rugby with the NRC for the future. When can we expect some results from this wondrous competition with the final watched by less people than the Club game you scorn. But that's OK because it will build....... How long does the game here have with 2 out of 5 Super teams profitable/breaking even and the standard of play in decline?

You as always will support whatever the management want.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Or it may just be that the game is more intense, defences are quicker, time is less and as a result, skills are harder to execute.

If the Wallabies skills are so poor how have they not slipped well behind other times rather than stayed around 2/3 for most of time?

Players train more hours now. Doing extra hours in the gym doesn't negate the skill work they do. I highly doubt players now spend more time on skills than past players did. I'd bet they spend more time.

But again. They're playing against full time professionals who are pad to train and minimise the skill execution of their opponents.

How does the NRC not assist in development? How does player better quality opponents more regularly not assist this? Why does a 10 week competition yield great results for NZ, but it's ridiculous to think an 8 week competition here could do similar?

 

[I like to watch]

bullshit.
How many super level 10's or 15's can kick with either foot?
How many 20 years ago?
How many super level 10's can ball play?
most could 20 years ago.

They should be second nature to someone who has been in a high performance environment since he was 16.
So maybe the pathway is not what it's promoted to be?

 

[Pfitzy]

So maybe the pathway is not what it's promoted to be?

The junior pathway is an inbred, political mess. Just like club rugby.

That needs fixing.

 

[Gnostic]

Or it may just be that the game is more intense, defences are quicker, time is less and as a result, skills are harder to execute.



If the Wallabies skills are so poor how have they not slipped well behind other times rather than stayed around 2/3 for most of time?



Players train more hours now. Doing extra hours in the gym doesn't negate the skill work they do. I highly doubt players now spend more time on skills than past players did. I'd bet they spend more time.



But again. They're playing against full time professionals who are pad to train and minimise the skill execution of their opponents.



How does the NRC not assist in development? How does player better quality opponents more regularly not assist this? Why does a 10 week competition yield great results for NZ, but it's ridiculous to think an 8 week competition here could do similar?

Easy one for you TWAS. Distance on kicks. Hodge is probably the biggest kicker in Oz ATM followed by Debrezcini. Why can't they kick as far or as accurately with the synthetic ball as amateurs did with the old leather ball.
Another one - explain to me how a player like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can get to 110 tests and not be able to pass out of both hands. The only reason they haven't dropped back further is because we have some of the best players in the world and up until recently we have had enough in the fitness and conditioning stakes to get over most sides.

I do not doubt these current blokes have the ability, I just don't think they have trained and practiced it enough to get the abilities ingrained, in fact this generation like the previous one 2004-2011 are not reaching their true potential because of it. The NZ results are gained because the players progress through their system learning every step of the way, how many are selected as school boys and taken to the highest level before they show all the skills? Jonah is about the only one I can think of.

As for the NRC the quality was no better than the upper level games of the Shute Shield and I expect the Hospitals Cup (though I didn't get to see it on TV), not that I expect that you'll agree with that point.

 

[Train Without a Station]

How many 10s 20 years ago played against meters organised defences?

You can't cite lack of skill execution as a failing without considering the development of tactics to prevent skill execution.

You aren't playing against a wall in a vacuum. The opposition today is much stronger and more organised due to professionalism. There's less fatigue in today's game due to this and the change in replacements.

Modern players are generally better, more effective tacklers. Today's weak defenders are better than those of the past. Players can pass quicker, further and flatter. Look at the development of line out throwing technique.

But today the opposition is pressuring you much more than they did in the past.

 

[I like to watch]

So organised defence stops you from kicking from each foot?
If anything less time makes versatility more important.

Players are better tacklers,and they are much stronger at the breakdown,cos that's all they practise in their high performance squads.

the kiwis can do all these impossible things in today's environment
Fitter,faster smarter defences notwithstanding.

So either their genetics are better than ours,or their program is.