Union or League? The pros and cons for school leavers

[Newbie]

Professional or Social Pathways?

Gentlemen,

For me this topic is about analysing the 'Professional Pathways' that presently exist in each respective rugby code for junior elite athletes; and to discuss and/or debate the pro and cons! Nevertheless some of the discussion is touching upon social perspectives (and validly so) and therefore I believe it warrants a considered response; here goes!

From a social aspect rugby is the winner by a country mile. There is no comparsion, league isnt even in the 'Ball Park'. As alluded to by some of the learned scribes above, there is an abundance of opportunities presently exisiting for young talented (but not neccessarily elite) rugby players abroad; especially in the 'Home Nations' as they are often referred!

I think all who have played rugby here in Australia during their lifetime (especially those who have played Subbies) would if asked, attest to hearing at least once, an Irish, English or Welsh accent emanating from somewhere on the football field. And the same applies over there with respect to Australians. Better still such competitions are played in good spirit (on most occasions), and the comradre that exists knows no borders; it is almost spiritual!

Unfortunately league does not have this kindred spirit at the same level. No, instead it has social competitons that are pervaded with 'HAS-BEENS' or 'NEVER-QUITE-MADE-ITS' whose sole ambition is to knock the heads off their opposition (especially the head of some young percieived upstart who has recently joined the ranks)! Its analogous to catharsis for Neanderthals I am afraid!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Runner]

May i add that the best defensive coach for union is from league. Muggleton. before him it was touch.

 

[fjahnin45f]

i know for sure that players who have an interest in travelling and seeing the world can get a run at a lot of clubs overseas (maybe not major ones). As the main purpose is travelling and not playing professional rugby the opportunity to play at whatever level is always there. If that person has had some 1st grade experience in a recognised Australian comp (not necessarily in Sydney or Brisbane) then they will be able to get some assistance normally or payment to play. if that experience is in a major southern hemisphere club competition then teh payment can be quite good.

I know of young players from the Newcastle comp who have travelled overseas and, due to club contacts o/s, have secured some good playing conditions in Italy and Ireland (accommodation, jobs and some spending coin)

Ruby is not belong to sports played by students in our country but we have a rugby team representing our country. They come from different countries but having a parent native to our country qualified them to join our team. They are good although newly formed and brought honor to us.
However, they need to travel frequently not just to compete but also for practice session of the entire team which members came from different part of the world. This matter is a challenge for them so they are promoting rugby to younger population. Still, they can live up with what they are best of and their talent still brings honor to us.

 

[pathfinder]

Pathfinder

Without trying to downgrade Lord Newbie's comments and not being a Parramatta or Canterbury fan, if the quote above is true and I have no doubt it is; it should be pointed out that if this young bloke was offered $100k it was as a tier 1 player so he would be in the top 25 players salary cap. In other words, not there to play U20s (NYC), therefore it is only sightly above what a rookie 1st grader would expect

Don't really know where your coming from but take it as fact the kid was offered 100k and a spot in the top 25. As for earning only slightly above what a rookie first grader grader would expect he is barely a rookie NYC player with about 4-games under his belt. If he stays injury injury free the best is yet to come:yay

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Gentlemen,

Let me set the record straight. When I stated $100K, I perhaps should have stated that it was for more than one season. In all likelihood it was probably for 2/3 years. I would say two given who this player is! Nevertheless, this is not an uncommon amount that NRL clubs are willing to pay for prodigious juniors (especially those who have made higher representative honours like Australian Schoolboys). Let me assure you that league pays well for those juniors it believes will make the grade!

For a very recent example of the above please Google a lad called 'Matthew Groat'. Young Mr Groat graduated from St Greg's Campbelltown last year and made his debut for the Tigers in this year's NRL finals series. Not bad for a 19 year old!

Not long after the ASSRL U/18’s Championship several weeks ago a young lad by the name of Brendan Santi signed with the Tigers for 3 years at $50K a season. Santi’s representative record prior to signing with the Tigers was NSWRL U/16’s, NSWRL U/18’s, NSWCHS U/18’s, and Australian Schoolboys U/18’s. The lad I had previously mentioned, Matthew Groat, had the same honours (with the exception of representing NSWCCC instead of NSWCHS).

Magpie is right with respect to the amounts that some Harold Matthews lads earn, however only the cream of the crop are paid this amount (which is approximately 5%). These are the boys that are contracted players. In addition these boys also earn bonuses of $1-3K for making various NSW and Australian representative teams.

What I have stated is information that is readily ascertainable!

Regards,
Newbie

Another Greg's boy breaking through. They have been a bit thin on the ground in recent years. Only Jono Wright and Chris Lawrence in the NRL of late, Ryan Hoffman since moving on. Good for him.

 

[McFlavour]

Just thought i'd mention that Australian A schoolboys inside centre and Ipswich boy Sam Johnson signed with the knights so there's another one to toyota cup

 

[Newbie]

Just thought i'd mention that Australian A schoolboys inside centre and Ipswich boy Sam Johnson signed with the knights so there's another one to toyota cup

Mac,

In the 'Australian Schools Championship 2011 etc' thread I stated the following at post #450 after attending the the 'Aus A v NZ Schools' game;

"...There was one particular NRL recruitment manager that was there tonight. He has an excellent reputation for identifying talent and is known to raid the prodigious junior rugby ranks! Surprisingly, he was wearing Newcastle Knights livery tonight which leads me to believe that he is no longer in the employ of the Canterbury Bulldogs!"

The person I was referring to is called Peter Mulholland. I later discovered that Peter, on that very day, ceased employment with the Bulldogs at 5pm and commenced his new job with the Knights that very night (pardon the pun)! I think you will find that some others might end up at the Knights (in particular several boys from the NZ Schools team)!

Regards,
Newbie.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good scooping Newbie.

I thought 12. Sam Johnson had a terrific game for Oz A Schools v. England at Oakhill. He's a bit greedy and tries to beat his man too much instead of using the ball sometimes but that will serve him better in the 13 man game which has fewer defenders and therefore wider gaps.

 

[Budgie]

Gentlemen,
.....
For a very recent example of the above please Google a lad called 'Matthew Groat'. Young Mr Groat graduated from St Greg's Campbelltown last year and made his debut for the Tigers in this year's NRL finals series. Not bad for a 19 year old!
....
Regards,
Newbie

Rugby World Cup - Wales - George North. Not bad for a 19 year old.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

According the oracle that is Wikipedia, Matthew Groat played 10 first grade Loig games in 2011.

He was knocked unconscious in a pre-season game against the Broncos in 2012. He has not played a first grade fivekick game since then.

He has signed with the Dragons recently.

Poor bugger hasn't played much sport so far in his career after displaying a lot of promise early on.

A good role model for having a back up plan, because in any athletic career, you are only one bad injury away from joining the queue at Centrelink if you do not have a plan B.

 

[fireball]

indeed...very well said. i think for a young union boy with some talent pursuing a union career should be far more attractive and i think the way union has married with the schools system ensures the boys get a decent shot at an education too. having watched a lot of both codes at school level the league boys are a bit harder and the competition for elite spots more desperate i'd also argue that very best league boys would have a better shot at crossing to union than the reverse. the codes are very different as we know union needs to breed and keep its own and the good union kids should enjoy the opportunities they have rather than cross codes and struggle.

 

[Runner]

I couldn't agree more Maggie. I also think League commentators have a lot to answer for. When describing attacking play you hear them say things like " brilliant player ", "unbelievable skills " and "it's a miracle pass". WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!! Most times it all comes back to a poor first up tackle. League is looking more and more like touch footy now. My advice to any young league player is, if you want to learn how to tackle properly, play Union.

Was it not John Muggleton who taught the Union guys to tackle and then a defensive coach (?) was also Phil Blake who now coaches union but was a RL player.

 

[blackheart]

Was it not John Muggleton who taught the Union guys to tackle and then a defensive coach (?) was also Phil Blake who now coaches union but was a RL player.

Yes, but both hard nuts from the 80's-early 90's when the leagies knew how to tackle, not the more recent style, using two or three defenders in a "cover all" tackle.

 

[It is what it is]

Was it not John Muggleton who taught the Union guys to tackle and then a defensive coach (?) was also Phil Blake who now coaches union but was a RL player.

You need to look at Muggleton's recent record as defensive coach for the Melbourne Rebels. Of all of Phil Blake's wonderful playing skills, tackling wasn't one of them.

 

[Ted S]

In regards to the union v league defense. In the past RL defense rang rings around RU defense from U6s to international. The gap has narrowed with some massive improvements in RU defense both structurally and in the tackle.
But esp with kids those that haven't played RL are well behind those that have as far as tackling ability.

Then there is the joke of the lot, the U20 NYC competition. The defense is crap. There are some good defenders but on the whole they are terrible.

The U20s situation is about the players they select. They pick a lot of big athletic looking characters without much of a ticker. These basically don't make it much past U20s

 

[Top Cat]

In regards to the union v league defense. In the past RL defense rang rings around RU defense from U6s to international. The gap has narrowed with some massive improvements in RU defense both structurally and in the tackle.
But esp with kids those that haven't played RL are well behind those that have as far as tackling ability.

Then there is the joke of the lot, the U20 NYC competition. The defense is crap. There are some good defenders but on the whole they are terrible.

The U20s situation is about the players they select. They pick a lot of big athletic looking characters without much of a ticker. These basically don't make it much past U20s

I don't want to make this thread into union v's league but I would have to disagree with you. Even though many union juniors are not great at defence or tackling, from what I have seen over the years the league and dual coders are the worst. The majority of them reaching out for an upper body grab and making high tackles even at u16's. My three boys never played league before playing union and yet they are renowned for their tackling and defence. Maybe we were blessed but it just came naturally to them.

I have some brilliant video coverage that would put even professional players to shame but it takes too long to download.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I don't want to make this thread into union v's league but I would have to disagree with you. Even though many union juniors are not great at defence or tackling, from what I have seen over the years the league and dual coders are the worst. The majority of them reaching out for an upper body grab and making high tackles even at u16's. My three boys never played league before playing union and yet they are renowned for their tackling and defence. Maybe we were blessed but it just came naturally to them.

I have some brilliant video coverage that would put even professional players to shame but it takes too long to download.

Defence in League has seriously declined in the past decade or so. Not just in terms of tackling but in patterns. A good example is the current RLWC.

A RL fan was gloating about the amount of tries scored in some of the games in the WC so far. In one game there 10 or 11 scored. That's not a sign of a great game but really poor defensive patterns and play. It's a weakness not a strength.

 

[The Rock]

I don't want to make this thread into union v's league but I would have to disagree with you. Even though many union juniors are not great at defence or tackling, from what I have seen over the years the league and dual coders are the worst. The majority of them reaching out for an upper body grab and making high tackles even at u16's. My three boys never played league before playing union and yet they are renowned for their tackling and defence. Maybe we were blessed but it just came naturally to them.

I have some brilliant video coverage that would put even professional players to shame but it takes too long to download.

It all comes down to Coaching. There are Some Bad Coaches or Coaches who have No Idea ! Still like the Old Methods of Strapping Tennis Balls to the palm of the hands when tackling, (or juggling balls or rolled up socks) in their hands. This encourages them to wrap their arms around the Attacking Player...so you don't grab with the fingers and use your arms. Sliding is another great defensive tactic, players aim to spread across the field in a single line and stop the attacking players from breaking this line. The 'Slide Defence' and the 'Umbrella Defence' tactics aim to curb the amount of breaks in the line. You still don't see a lot of Coaches Implementing this, especially in the Backline.

 

[fireball]

yeah, yeah, yeah...i want to see tries scored. 7-5 scorelines or worse 9-6 bore me witless. 5 tries to 4 the other week blacks v wallabies and great entertainment. good that kids can tackle but give me one who can run!

 

[Top Cat]

yeah, yeah, yeah.i want to see tries scored. 7-5 scorelines or worse 9-6 bore me witless. 5 tries to 4 the other week blacks v wallabies and great entertainment. good that kids can tackle but give me one who can run!

Hope you don't mean the type that can run and can do very little else. They seem to be a favourite for selection but come the next level up they become ineffective.