Wallabies 2020

[Brumby Runner]

All of those guys are possibilities UTG, I agree - and I would expect guys like Maddocks & Banks to continue to improve as well.

In a year or two a guy like Mark Nawaqanitawase will hopefully come into the reckoning as well.

But at the moment none of those guys are anything more than guys with potential.

I think both Maddocks and Banks have surpassed the potential stage. Just needs a coach willing to use them in their most suited positions, and they'll be in the mix. In fact, I would say Banks should be vying with DHP for the No 15 spot.

 

[Tex]

I'd like a complete ban on 'probables' Wallabies 23 names until we've got a coach confirmed and some idea of that person's style of play.

Why should DHP, Banks or Maddocks be named other than for idle speculation?

Let's imagine a time when the head coach defines their vision for the national team and then selects the cattle to deliver it.

 

[TSR]

I think both Maddocks and Banks have surpassed the potential stage. Just needs a coach willing to use them in their most suited positions, and they'll be in the mix. In fact, I would say Banks should be vying with DHP for the No 15 spot.

Depends what scale you are rating them on. IMO neither of them have demonstrated they are proven test performers at such a level that they will be materially better then what we’ve had over the last few years. That’s not entirely their fault - they are both just young and starting out, and both have some good moments on their highlights reel - but neither of them have grabbed their test jersey in both hands when presented the opportunity from my perspective.

 

[Viking]

I'd like a complete ban on 'probables' Wallabies 23 names until we've got a coach confirmed and some idea of that person's style of play.

Why should DHP, Banks or Maddocks be named other than for idle speculation?

Let's imagine a time when the head coach defines their vision for the national team and then selects the cattle to deliver it.

Half the fun is speculating.

And I'd prefer a coach who picks the best players and then builds a strategy based on that - otherwise your talking about another Cheika with a stubborn "vision".

 

[Viking]

Depends what scale you are rating them on. IMO neither of them have demonstrated they are proven test performers at such a level that they will be materially better then what we’ve had over the last few years. That’s not entirely their fault - they are both just young and starting out, and both have some good moments on their highlights reel - but neither of them have grabbed their test jersey in both hands when presented the opportunity from my perspective.

I get what you saying. But to some extent they have proven they are test level players. More so DHP with a load of experience but Banks also had a solid game without being outstanding game against the Boks.

Sure they haven't grabbed the jersey with both hands but I do feel they are already solid options. I would argue they are mostly disregarded, especially Banks, due to preferring a certain playing style over another, rather then them not being up to test level standard.

 

[Show-n-go]

Subject of course to what happens with Super Rugby, I don't think opening it up would have that effect. We aren't talking about 100 players here. There's only so many Japanese / English / French jobs going because they cap their foreign player numbers. I definitely don't think it would warrant poaching NRL players. Didn't we set up the NRC for pretty much this reason? To expand our pool of talent to feed full-time pro rugby jobs?

True although I’m yet to hear of a SH player wanting to move but not able to find a contract

But the NRC isn’t up to scratch yet, it isn’t the talent pool that Currie cup or NPC are. There are only a handful of those guys that could/would make the jump so super rugby if needed. Certainly not enough to cover the vacuum opening up eligibility laws would cause

 

[Brumby Runner]

Depends what scale you are rating them on. IMO neither of them have demonstrated they are proven test performers at such a level that they will be materially better then what we’ve had over the last few years. That’s not entirely their fault - they are both just young and starting out, and both have some good moments on their highlights reel - but neither of them have grabbed their test jersey in both hands when presented the opportunity from my perspective.

A couple of observations. Maddocks and Banks are rising stars who are very likely, almost certainly, to be better than some of the fading stars who will be vying for the same spots. If they haven't already, Banks and Maddocks will overtake Beale and DHP and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in the next little while.

As for form/test match performance, Banks especially, and to an extent also Maddocks, hasn't been given a lot of time to really show form at test match level. However, Banks was in better Super form than Beale in 2019 and Maddocks also at the beginning of the year was ranked one of the better performers at the Rebels. Super form doesn't always translate at test level, but it is the best indicator we have.

The time is ripe right now to bring on the future and leave the past to fade away as it should.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Half the fun is speculating.

And I'd prefer a coach who picks the best players and then builds a strategy based on that - otherwise your talking about another Cheika with a stubborn "vision".

With the proviso that combinations are important. No good having the best No 9 and the best No 10 if they don't complement each other. Same could be said for the Kerevi/Kuridrani combination, and I would also say the same for the Pooper. Play the best, but only if their input and close combinations are in the interest of the team as a whole/.

 

[Brumby Runner]

True although I’m yet to hear of a SH player wanting to move but not able to find a contract

But the NRC isn’t up to scratch yet, it isn’t the talent pool that Currie cup or NPC are. There are only a handful of those guys that could/would make the jump so super rugby if needed. Certainly not enough to cover the vacuum opening up eligibility laws would cause

That's an interesting postulation. One that I don't necessarily agree with.

Just from the NRC this year, I can see plenty of players showing they could/would make the grade in Super Rugby. Players like, Ryan Lonergan, Nick Frost, Angus Allen, Len Ikitau, Mack Hanson at the Vikings, and Harry Lloyd, Fergus Lee-Warner, Tevin Ferris, Henry Stowers, Issak Fines and Byron Ralston at the Western Force. All of these will be on display this weekend if you'd like to catch them in action.

I'm sure there are others in the NSW, QLD and Vic NRC teams, and I haven't really factored in the U20s players, apart from Frost at the Vikings, many of whom will easily go to the next level. Just, eg, have a look at Harry Wilson and Fraser McReight at QLD and Will Harrison at NSW.

 

[Show-n-go]

That's an interesting postulation. One that I don't necessarily agree with.

Just from the NRC this year, I can see plenty of players showing they could/would make the grade in Super Rugby. Players like, Ryan Lonergan, Nick Frost, Angus Allen, Len Ikitau, Mack Hanson at the Vikings, and Harry Lloyd, Fergus Lee-Warner, Tevin Ferris, Henry Stowers, Issak Fines and Byron Ralston at the Western Force. All of these will be on display this weekend if you'd like to catch them in action.

I'm sure there are others in the NSW, QLD and Vic NRC teams, and I haven't really factored in the U20s players, apart from Frost at the Vikings, many of whom will easily go to the next level. Just, eg, have a look at Harry Wilson and Fraser McReight at QLD and Will Harrison at NSW.

I was probably a tad inaccurate with my statement, I’m sure they could all fill out a super squad however I’m still sceptical how many of those guys could fill in a match day squad or run on side and provide the goods

The guys most likely to leave are our matchday players, not the wider squad guys I think the void is still too big, there aren’t enough guys to step up and provide quality match play especially against NZ and SA opposition

 

[Viking]

With the proviso that combinations are important. No good having the best No 9 and the best No 10 if they don't complement each other. Same could be said for the Kerevi/Kuridrani combination, and I would also say the same for the Pooper. Play the best, but only if their input and close combinations are in the interest of the team as a whole/.

So true. It's about finding the right balance of players, game-plan, and combinations.

 

[Adam84]

No doubt it’s going to become an increasing issue as the relative wealth of RA and Super Rugby as a whole declines against competing tournaments around the world, I still don’t entirely support the idea of opening up selection. Representing the Wallabies and playing Test Rugby is still a major draw card for some players, and adds an unquantifiable amount onto the value fo the contract on offer domestically.

 

[Rebels3]

I think both Maddocks and Banks have surpassed the potential stage. Just needs a coach willing to use them in their most suited positions, and they'll be in the mix. In fact, I would say Banks should be vying with DHP for the No 15 spot.

Maddocks is only 22, he’s still got plenty of time to develop.

 

[Adam84]

Maddocks is a natural finisher, just needs to work on other technical aspects of his game. He seems a bit lost when it comes to the technical aspects of rugby, like how to defend a ruck. I remember watching him been counterrucked by a winger half his size and blown off the ball, Maddocks looked completely lost as to what he was supposed to be doing in that area.

Sure its not a primary skill for a winger, but its an essential skill for any test level rugby player.

 

[cyclopath]

Maddocks is a natural finisher, just needs to work on other technical aspects of his game. He seems a bit lost when it comes to the technical aspects of rugby, like how to defend a ruck. I remember watching him been counterrucked by a winger half his size and blown off the ball, Maddocks looked completely lost as to what he was supposed to be doing in that area.

Sure its not a primary skill for a winger, but its an essential skill for any test level rugby player.

Totally agree. He'd currently get eaten up by quality Test wingers.
BUT, he has great natural attributes that, as you say, can be built upon.

 

[Rebels3]

He’s a 15 that can play wing.

 

[molman]

I reckon opening up selection to anyone is inevitable and positive.

For one thing, it would increase the number of test eligible Australians playing legit pro rugby. There are 92 (4 * 23) match day spots in Super Rugby. If a bunch of players go OS because the selection criteria constraint was holding them back, then their old Super Rugby spots are up for grabs (for the next best guys, guys in NRC or whatever). For mine, that is a good thing. We now have more eligible players playing pro rugby. We go on about lack of depth, but we only have 92 match day spots. And the national side needs 23. That's not a great ratio. England has 12 top tier sides. France 14. Saffas will pick from anywhere. NZ has 5 plus the NPC, which is basically Super Rugby standard anyway. Wales have a complicated system that is a bit of a hybrid.

It would also take some pressure off RA's finances.

At least when it comes to Europe, it might actually benefit some of our guys to play in the NH leagues so they can broaden their rugby experiences a bit.

I think I'd rather go the other way and build depth through a more robust provincial comp in a model similar to what NZ does with Mitre 10 Cup. The issue is obviously the economics just might not work here in our competitive sporting landscape. Putting more weight into something like a robust NRC I think would achieve better outcomes in the longrun. In some ways it's a shame we couldn't get Andrew Forester to turn that into a solid comp rather than his GRR. We really need a big injection of money to give it more legs.



Whilst as you say there are some benefits to allowing the overseas competitions to nurture some of our rugby talent, I still feel some of these positives are out weighted by a bunch of potential negatives.


I acknowledge there is a finite limit to how many players we could loose abroad but removing the cap opens up many of our top players to the global market in a manner we might not be able to contend with. The way to think about it is that the Wallabies corresponding cap or playing in Australian Rugby requirement would have a certain market value which means we can pay some players less than the global market. With it removed you now need to compete with those oversea clubs on equal terms in the global market for rugby player talent. This could ultimately cost RA more in financial terms, rather than less as their cap/play in Australia rules doesn't impose a financial cost on them, just limits their access to 'possible' talent (which 'may' have financial impact in other ways).



The problem also is with any outflow of talent we loose depth locally, this means that our local players are either struggling to compete with the other Super Rugby franchises (like the NZ/SA teams) which has an economic impact on our game and in-turn ability to attract talent (ask players if they'd rather play for clubs that tend to loose vs. win), but further means that our players are no longer competing against the best Australian players for spots so there is the possibility of standards actually regressing not to mention we loose some of the modelling and transfer of skills/knowledge between generations of players.


Finally whilst I don't agree that coaches can't review players in other competitions it does add complexity. This comes in the form of being able to truely compare players, assessing how competitive an overseas competition is next to another, having access to a range of data, controlling rest, recovery, performance goals. . etc. . etc. . all the things top teams like NZ are doing these days to have the edge.


I don't think we need to make any changes until we are sure that the benefits of any players we could bring back would outweigh a raft of potential impacts. Even for this RWC I would be curious who people feel they would have picked from abroad who wasn't?




 

[Up the Guts]

I think both Maddocks and Banks have surpassed the potential stage. Just needs a coach willing to use them in their most suited positions, and they'll be in the mix. In fact, I would say Banks should be vying with DHP for the No 15 spot.

In my view, both Maddocks and Banks are 15s and wouldn't solve any problems at 14.

 

[Lost]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...llabies-coach-staff-told-20191024-p533vk.html

Jungle drums beating stronger. Their will be no review, what needs to reviewed to protect those involved has already been reviewed. Castles language is very carefully chosen, the market has been reviewed, different views consulted and the role has been offered, and allocated.

Cheika will be slid straight under the bus.No shock there other than how would it have proceeded if they made the final? We will never know, it was not likely. Johnson will review the reasons for the early exit exempting any personal involvement. Rennie is the coach, Johnson is in charge. Of that there appears little doubt. It may be that Rennie was the only one to have an interest in being subservient to a Director of Rugby. Moving from Glasgow to Paddington doesn’t sound too harsh.

Nothing to see here please move along.

 

[Lorenzo]

I'm not convinced of the merits of an independent review. We have a new CEO that has the chance to install her own people. We've known this was going to happen for years - all the review would need to tell you was that Cheika cooked Pulver in contract negotiations (if MC was as passionate about coaching the wobs as he claims, would he not have taken a 2 year deal with incentives or a longer deal with KPI clauses?) and we got stuck with a bad deal for 4 years.

How could you possibly expect Johnson to shoulder great blame in the outcome? He has been in the job for 10 months and was thrust into a situation with a coach that now admits to not being interested in working with or for a director of rugby or any co-selectors.

Cheika will be slid straight under the bus.

Cheika dived under the bus.