Wallabies v Barbarians - 1/11/14 (Twickenham)

[chiraag]

Mate, we need to establish a clear first 15 first....

THEN we can start experimenting and blooding players to provide some more depth and succession planning.

Yeah, that's a reasonable point, but our locks this year bar Skelton have been given a good go in the rugby championship and have generally not been up to scratch. Skelton has been shown to not even be that effective in the NRC, so should be a year or two away from the gold jersey. So trying Jones wouldn't be about more depth, but rather trying to find a better player in an area we are currently lacking for the starting 15.

Similarly, Alexander is a known quantity, and we know that is below par in terms of scrummaging and also surprisingly around the park this year. While I think PAE & Weeks would be better in terms of scrummaging, Faulkner is great around the park, is a good scrummager and has the added bonus of being able to play on both sides, so would be worth a go off the bench.

Like I said, Godwin is understandable given the depth we have in this position now, which is great.

 

[Godfrey]

The big difference I see between Cooper and Foley is that if a try is on, Cooper will generally make it happen. I've noticed that a number of times in recent games Foley has pulled an AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) with the line open for another player - a flyhalf should be the least susceptible to white-line fever. In particular that shocker against Argentina on the Gold Coast that nearly cost us the game. Whereas if we look at Cooper's performance on the last EOYT chances, half-chances and even a couple of wtfs generally got converted to tries.

Cooper gets more out of the players around him and there is so much less of the ineffective flash stuff that Pftizy is so upset about. If he kills it this game he should get some form of shot against Wales. I did really like last year when Foley came on at the tail end of matches, always made an impact with his running.

 

[Tomikin]

Yeah, that's a reasonable point, but our locks this year bar Skelton have been given a good go in the rugby championship and have generally not been up to scratch. Skelton has been shown to not even be that effective in the NRC, so should be a year or two away from the gold jersey. So trying Jones wouldn't be about more depth, but rather trying to find a better player in an area we are currently lacking for the starting 15.

Similarly, Alexander is a known quantity, and we know that is below par in terms of scrummaging and also surprisingly around the park this year. While I think PAE & Weeks would be better in terms of scrummaging, Faulkner is great around the park, is a good scrummager and has the added bonus of being able to play on both sides, so would be worth a go off the bench.

Like I said, Godwin is understandable given the depth we have in this position now, which is great.

Jones is a 6 shoehorn in at lock for super rugby, bit like Fardy in that sense. I don't think his our Locking answer.

EDIT: Just like Fardy ain't a lock at test level.

 

[KAOPointman]

Yeah, that's a reasonable point, but our locks this year bar Skelton have been given a good go in the rugby championship and have generally not been up to scratch. Skelton has been shown to not even be that effective in the NRC, so should be a year or two away from the gold jersey. So trying Jones wouldn't be about more depth, but rather trying to find a better player in an area we are currently lacking for the starting 15.

Similarly, Alexander is a known quantity, and we know that is below par in terms of scrummaging and also surprisingly around the park this year. While I think PAE & Weeks would be better in terms of scrummaging, Faulkner is great around the park, is a good scrummager and has the added bonus of being able to play on both sides, so would be worth a go off the bench.

Like I said, Godwin is understandable given the depth we have in this position now, which is great.

I totally don't agree that Skelton hasn't fired in the NRC. Well kind of. One second people are saying that you can't compare NRC to tests if the players has a great NRC game......then it's that they can't hack test lvl because they didn't shine in the NRC. No logic there what so ever. NRC at the moment is a running mans game. Quick set pieces but no foucus on them. Tests are about set pieces.......and that's where Skelton was awesome for the tahs this year.
He needs to be blooded!

 

[KAOPointman]

Barbarians squad:

11 NZ, 8 SAF, 3 ARG, 1 AUS, 1 JAP, 1 SCO, 1 ENG, 1 SAM

Backs: Tim Nanai-Williams (NZ), Joaquin Tuculet (Argentina), Patrick Osborne (NZ), Frank Halai (NZ), Nick Cummins (Australia), Juan de Jongh (South Africa), Francis Saili (NZ), Colin Slade (NZ), Marnitz Boshoff (South Africa), Tomas Cubelli (Argentina), Sarel Pretorius (South Africa), Fumiaki Tanaka (Japan)
Forwards: Adam Thomson (NZ), Matt Todd (NZ), Heinrich Brussow (South Africa), Jacques Botes (South Africa), Steven Luatua (NZ), Michael Rhodes (South Africa), Al Kellock (Scotland), Dominic Bird (NZ), Matias Alemanno (Argentina), Coenie Oosthuizen (South Africa), Matt Stevens (England), Thomas Du Toit (South Africa), Angus Ta'avao (NZ), James Parsons (NZ), Mahonri Schwalger (Samoa)

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...abies-spring-tour-opener-20141021-119nta.html

Seeing as this appears to be an allblacks b squad....and the kiwis are always going on that even the b team could flog the wallabies......will be interesting to see. Not that it's a 100% strong wallabies team tho. But we have the best depth I've ever seen!

 

[Sully]

This bullshit about "game breaker" ignores completely what Foley has achieved since his Test debut LAST FUCKING YEAR.

Is this is the same test side that the coach had a 50% win record?

 

[qwerty51]

Tests are about set pieces...and that's where Skelton was awesome for the tahs this year.
He needs to be blooded!

No that's completely opposite

 

[formerflanker]

I'm cracking up at people blowing their load over Hodgson being picked as captain. It's a tour game. Not a test match.

The captaincy is a singular honour for players. Hodgson has earned his spot and the captaincy through hard work and Super Rugby leadership over several seasons. People can recognise a just reward when they see it. Whilst Hooper will reclaim the spot and the captaincy against Wales, let's accord Hodgson the respect he deserves.

 

[formerflanker]

mm I like the choice too. Strangely I think it's unlikely Hodgo will be a part of the WC squad next year, with pocock and Hooper our likely 7s. Still he's a good choice for a one-off game.

Pocock's return from injury and finding his old form are both unknowns at this stage.

 

[chiraag]

Jones is a 6 shoehorn in at lock for super rugby, bit like Fardy in that sense. I don't think his our Locking answer.

EDIT: Just like Fardy ain't a lock at test level.

I guess that's where our opinions differ. Given what we're getting out of our locks at the moment, I'd prefer to be getting more abrasiveness and impact around the ground which Fardy or Jones at lock would do (with the benefit of an additional backrower). It's not like they wouldn't provide a good lineout option (ideally we could have Simmons, Jones, Higgers and McCalman as options). The only downside would possibly be the scrum (I'm not sure how good Fardy & Jones are packing at lock, but I'm guessing not much worse than Carter or Horwill). Fardy & Jones would be better in the set piece than Skelton in any case.

If we had a Retallick or Whitelock type option, then that would be great. But we don't, so I reckon Jones / Fardy at lock would be a better option, or at least worth a go.

 

[Tomikin]

I guess that's where our opinions differ. Given what we're getting out of our locks at the moment, I'd prefer to be getting more abrasiveness and impact around the ground which Fardy or Jones at lock would do (with the benefit of an additional backrower). It's not like they wouldn't provide a good lineout option (ideally we could have Simmons, Jones, Higgers and McCalman as options). The only downside would possibly be the scrum (I'm not sure how good Fardy & Jones are packing at lock, but I'm guessing not much worse than Carter or Horwill). Fardy & Jones would be better in the set piece than Skelton in any case.

Is the Jones that since about mid season played like a busted boat. Or the one at the start of the season.

I think Simmions, Carter and Horwill add much more in the scrum, and player tighter games then the others. Fardy does both but we already have two wingers we don't need our forwards out there two.

Jones is a good prospects but obviously in training didn't show more then the others. His chance will come after the world cup.

 

[Pfitzy]

Skelton has been shown to not even be that effective in the NRC,

In a dud team, with dud coaches, whose plan seemed to be "chuck it to the big brown bloke while we run around like headless chooks!"

Yeah fair call.

 

[cyclopath]

Is the Jones that since about mid season played like a busted boat. Or the one at the start of the season.

I think Simmions, Carter and Horwill add much more in the scrum, and player tighter games then the others. Fardy does both but we already have two wingers we don't need our forwards out there two.

Jones is a good prospects but obviously in training didn't show more then the others. His chance will come after the world cup.

These type of comments are a bit simplistic. Watch Kieran Read, whom I doubt many would describe as a poor player, and watch where he plays a lot of his game. The orthodoxy that player "X" has to be at some prescribed place on the field at all times is way outdated. The defensive lines have changed (they look more like Rugby League lines now), and the attacking structure too has changed.
It's all about balance. You can have a player like Higginbotham, Fardy, Hooper, Skelton, etc playing where you like, as long as the balance is right. If we see a player roaming wide, the coaches have them there for a reason. Similarly, the Wallaby coach might want a player doing something differently to their provincial coach, so they have to look at the overall skillset, and potential. I wouldn't categorise a player as only providing "x" at Wallaby level based on "x" at Super level necessarily.
I'm not having a go at you per se, but the general mantras that get recited about certain players, without enough consideration that they might have more strings to their bows. I'm sure Jones could play either role, if required.

 

[Pfitzy]

Before any of you start drowning in misery:

Caydern Neville will deliver us from purgatory.

 

[Tomikin]

Before any of you start drowning in misery:

Caydern Neville will deliver us from purgatory.

Like he did the Rebels?

 

[Forcefield]

Is Matt Hodgson the first Aboriginal Wallabies captain in 30 years?

 

[Dumbledore]

The turnaround in public opinion on Jones, based on 10 ordinary minutes against the French, has been extraordinary. Before that he was the 'form lock in Australia.' After that he's become just another scrub.

He looked tired at the end of the Soup season. Unsurprising given his immense workrate and the crazy minutes he played. Fucked off at the end of the season, got engaged, got pretty fat and then played his way back into shape in the NRC to the point where he was the form 6 in the comp and arguably the best player in a dominant team.

Personally I don't think he's cut out to play lock at Test level. He's not quite big enough, and doesn't have the insane old man/country strength of Brad Thorn. He's pretty much the prototypical 6 at that level though. Can play tight and loose, is a good lineout jumper, makes an ungodly amount of tackles and can carry. His hands in contact aren't A+ and he sometimes runs into contact too high, but he's ready for Test rugby now - he'll have a role to play in England next year and that means we should have a look at some point on this tour.

 

[Biffo]

Before any of you start drowning in misery:

Caydern Neville will deliver us from purgatory.

at last --- some real sense.
thank you, Mr Pfitzy.

the Wallabies will suffer in the locking department for some time yet.
i think their best long-term prospects are Neville, Coleman and Staniforth.

meantime, they will have to rely on what they have got, which ain't much.
i hold out little hope for Simmons, Carter and Horwill although TGC may be able to revive the last-named.

Skelton is half a chance to make it, if well managed.
i wish the parrots with their "unfit for test rugby" would just STFU.
there is a very good reason Skelton usually plays 40-45 minutes for the Tahs and it has nought to do with his fitness - it is all about best use of the squad by a master coach.
the parrots don't seem even to notice that sometimes Skelton plays the first half and sometimes the second half and that he shares his job with Douglas some times and JacPot at other times.

rather profligate to allow Sitaleki Timani, Kane Douglas and Jake Ball to wander off, wasn't it?

 

[ChargerWA]

I'm cracking up at people blowing their load over Hodgson being picked as captain. It's a tour game. Not a test match.

So what are you doing that's so amazing on Saturday to relegate the massive honour of Hodgson captaining his country to the so-so basket?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Genia has been ready to go for a lot longer than Cooper. In a lot of ways it makes sense to start Genia, because it's a good time to give him an opportunity (with Phipps having played himself into the ground for a while and likely to start the next week vs wales) but pair him with Foley just so the direction and communication in attack isn't too disrupted, after all we want to build fluency before the Wales game (an absolute must win). Cooper could start from the bench with a plan that he should get significant minutes.

9. Genia
10. Foley
11. Speight
12. Lilo or To'omua (toss up)
13. TK
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Izzy

21. Phipps
22. Cooper
23. Horne (or Tomane or any other outside back)

That's a back line that nicely balances experimentation/giving guys a chance to play with the all important consistency/combination

Can't agree that Will should start with Foley. The combination of Cooper and To'omua at 10/12 on last year's EOYT was a resounding success (even lauded at times as the best combination the Wallabies had put together for many years) while the combination of Foley/To'omua at 10/12 in this year's tests was somewhat off the pace. Much better in a non-test environment to reconnect Cooper and To'omua to see if they rekindle the combination they had last year. And both of them really need to game time under their belts before they might be required in the following test matches. And Will with Quade is a no brainer in this game.