Wallabies V Samoa - Test 2011

[daz]

I know this is controversial and people will complain and go on about it, but in my opinion it is outrageous that the worst scrummager in history is Australia's most capped prop. Australia will lose any game Al Baxter is even remotely involved in. Sorry to all those Baxter fans.

Surprised James Horwill isn't in there. I know he is being rested for 'burnout', but heard him speak multiple times during the week, and he said he definitely wanted to play.

I'm not doubting the ability of Matt Hodgson, but I would personally have Beau Robinson as back-up for Pocock. They might of rested Beau for the high of winning the final, because he was injured for most of the end of the season, so wouldn't be rested for 'burnout'.

And I'm also presuming Scott Higginbotham is being rested for burnout, because I rate him higher than Ben McCalman.

This selection has obviously ruled out JOC (James O'Connor) as inside centre, unless Robbie only wants to trial him with the first-choice 10 (QC (Quade Cooper)). As I have said on other posts, Robbie continually says that JOC (James O'Connor) is too small for inside centre. I'm also presuming that JOC (James O'Connor) may not be first-choice inside centre and Robbie is not trialling him there because Deans has not put him there in the blueprints over the past few years.

The problem people such as you and I have, redsfanatic, is that we need to be careful when having a go at other players and ridiculing selections, when our choices are from our team. It tends to be perceived as bias. And one-eyed bias at that.

Just my 2c...

 

[daz]

I know this is controversial and people will complain and go on about it, but in my opinion it is outrageous that the worst scrummager in history is Australia's most capped prop. Australia will lose any game Al Baxter is even remotely involved in. Sorry to all those Baxter fans.

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt before, but really, mate, comments like this give you zero credibility.

 

[barbarian]

I know this is controversial and people will complain and go on about it, but in my opinion it is outrageous that the worst scrummager in history is Australia's most capped prop. Australia will lose any game Al Baxter is even remotely involved in. Sorry to all those Baxter fans.

So you'd prefer to see, say, Ben Daley in gold? Because his scrummaging ability (or lack thereof) has been shown in both red and gold...

 

[Gnostic]

I know this is controversial and people will complain and go on about it, but in my opinion it is outrageous that the worst scrummager in history is Australia's most capped prop. Australia will lose any game Al Baxter is even remotely involved in. Sorry to all those Baxter fans.

Controversial no. Wrong yes.

On what emperical evidence do you base this on? Show me evidence that Baxter has had any real issues with any prop other than Woodcock who has been favoured by referees for a long time as Baxter has been penalised out of a career.

 

[RedsHappy]

I agree with you in principle barb, but I think it wise to add that while he might have been in good nick over the last two Super seasons, at Test level we are yet to see if the monkey is gone.

Agree with both you and Barb. Key point in part is: for sure, there will pre RWC be more long term and short term injuries to more top Wallabies, just as there'll be for our competition (btw, minimising same is obviously one of PdV's big motivations for naming his large sick bed in SA that simply are not up to touring in the 3N). We're going to have to take calculated risks with a number of not predicted and not ideal outcomes post injury. Let's get used to it and think imaginatively and, as you say, not automatically confine potentially very good 'fringe' or 'unfashionable' Wallaby players (eg Al B) to the unthinkable basket, that's a way to lose games before we play them.

 

[rugbyisfun]

Baxters issues are wholistic. His issues with the scrum (however hot and cold) are one part of his contribution (lack thereof) to each match he plays in. The guy just doesn't have it. He never has and never will. Yes, his scrummaging did improve this year. It took how long??? And only at S15 level???

 

[Gnostic]

Baxters issues are wholistic. His issues with the scrum (however hot and cold) are one part of his contribution (lack thereof) to each match he plays in. The guy just doesn't have it. He never has and never will. Yes, his scrummaging did improve this year. It took how long??? And only at S15 level???

Dribble.

There is only one other THP in Oz with a better balanced workrate/scrum ability at Super Level and that is Kepu who was until this year considered a specialist LHP who could play THP at a pinch. Away from the set piece (he is one of the best lineout lifters in Oz) he is a top notch defender and remains relatively mobile and secure ball carrier but is behind Kepu, Slipper and Alexander in the TH options on this point.

 

[jay-c]

baxter was penalised for scrummaging in every test against a top 5 opposition i can remember he played in.
wether or not he deserved it refs target him. and it might not be fair- but thats a liability the australian team cannot afford to carry.
if ive got the choice between 2 props that are useless in the scrum and one of those props is good around the park and the other does and has done fuck all in a decade of playing i know which one i choose.
i strongly believe baxter has gotten a lot of credit these last two years because of the work robinson and tpn have done inside him.
thing is even if had improved his scrummaging to a point which would satisfy the refs arnt gunna give him a chance to prove it> it sucks but thats life. we must move on.

 

[Gnostic]

So you would pick Ma'afu at TH over Baxter no matter what?

 

[Groucho]

I know this is controversial and people will complain and go on about it, but in my opinion it is outrageous that the worst scrummager in history is Australia's most capped prop. Australia will lose any game Al Baxter is even remotely involved in. Sorry to all those Baxter fans.

Okay I'll bite. At provincial level and against most test nations, Baxter is a very good scrummager. He has grown better over time as well, and not unusually for a THP. He has only been found out against the best scrummaging nations, who targeted him. He also has a fantastic temperament, and is a wonderful ambassador for the game. In my opinion, you're plain wrong.

 

[Sully]

Got to say Why would you bring a specialist tight head in to replace a specialist loose head?

 

[qwerty51]

Got to say Why would you bring a specialist tight head in to replace a specialist loose head?

Because Kepu who was going to the TH now becomes the #1 LH? Such is the man's versatility

 

[nathan]

Got to say Why would you bring a specialist tight head in to replace a specialist loose head?

Because in reality Alexander and Slipper are better LH props than they are TH props. Fingers crossed Kepu doesn't go down or we're screwed.

 

[jay-c]

So you would pick Ma'afu at TH over Baxter no matter what?

i dont consider baxter a superior scrummager to mafu and in 10 years i havnt seen baxter do anything but get penalised
hes not a noted defender, doesnt support his team mates (one try in super rugby tells me this), doesnt bend the defensive line with his runs, cant hold a scrum up i fact apart from lifting in the line outs id struggle to see how u could make a highlights package of his career except for that time he caught the ball and fell over the line once. and had one (twickenam 09?) test where he was 1/3 of a dominant scrum (keeping in mind robinson was best in the world on the other side and tpn or moore was it would have had a big influence on that scrum.( ok maybe it was 2 or 3 tests we had a good scrum OUT OF 69)
i would pick mafu over baxter but if i was choosing i feel we are now in a position where we need to pick on scrummaging alone. if thats palmer then we do need to carry him. we have enough above average performers in the pack to do this.

 

[Gnostic]

i dont consider baxter a superior scrummager to mafu and in 10 years i havnt seen baxter do anything but get penalised
hes not a noted defender, doesnt support his team mates (one try in super rugby tells me this), doesnt bend the defensive line with his runs, cant hold a scrum up i fact apart from lifting in the line outs id struggle to see how u could make a highlights package of his career except for that time he caught the ball and fell over the line once. and had one (twickenam 09?) test where he was 1/3 of a dominant scrum (keeping in mind robinson was best in the world on the other side and tpn or moore was it would have had a big influence on that scrum.
i would pick mafu over baxter but if i was choosing i feel we are now in a position where we need to pick on scrummaging alone. if thats palmer then we do need to carry him. we have enough above average performers in the pack to do this.

I would strongly suggest you go and watch 10 years of rugby again. Try and focus on the actual techniques of the various props and you will see that Baxter as most others have evolved over time. He has a very very good technique and is one of the strongest props around. Much of his poor reputation comes from being relied upon as the only TH of note in Oz after Ben Darwin was broken and he wasn't developed enopugh to take the burden. Much the same as has happened with Alexander and hints have been apparent about Slipper. Perception is key and changing perceptions is impossible when people will not examine the actual facts instead of regugitating pre-conceived notions.

FFS this is becoming a vicious circle debate like discussing Climate change really.

 

[RuckinGoodStats]

My prediction wasn't too far off. I'm more interested in who's got kicking duties.

Did a piece on this
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ki...he-tri-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-105631

 

[jay-c]

I would strongly suggest you go and watch 10 years of rugby again. Try and focus on the actual techniques of the various props and you will see that Baxter as most others have evolved over time. He has a very very good technique and is one of the strongest props around. Much of his poor reputation comes from being relied upon as the only TH of note in Oz after Ben Darwin was broken and he wasn't developed enopugh to take the burden. Much the same as has happened with Alexander and hints have been apparent about Slipper. Perception is key and changing perceptions is impossible when people will not examine the actual facts instead of regugitating pre-conceived notions.

FFS this is becoming a vicious circle debate like discussing Climate change really.

i think your 100 % correct that perception is key and changing perceptions is impossible
this is the exact reason im against baxter playing for australia again

 

[Sully]

Still doesn't extend from the hip and the knee on engage so pivots into the hit. ie: his head is already moving towards the grass. I watch.

 

[Gnostic]

Got to say Why would you bring a specialist tight head in to replace a specialist loose head?

Who would be the specialist LH you would replace him with? Cowan. Rodzilla. Henderson.

If the aim is to have an oiffensive capability in the scrum then only Baxter and Palmer are options. Given the general consensus regarding no experiementing in a RWC year and so close to it that would have to rule out Palmer.

If we are satisfied with a stable scrum and limitted offensive capability we can go with one of the LHs in the current squad and perhaps pick one of the above to replace Fatcat.

 

[Gnostic]

Still doesn't extend from the hip and the knee on engage so pivots into the hit. ie: his head is already moving towards the grass. I watch.

This is a bigger problem with Alexander who is head below hips on most of his engagements, perhaps in an attempt to get under his opponent as he seems to flex down on the hit and then bend up and under his opponent. That however only works with props not prepared for it. Against the Saders and England he just got driven down and penalised.