Wallabies vs England, Sydney, 3rd Test, 25 June @ 8:00pm

[Quick Hands]

Having a google around it appears that the league ball is meant to be easier to pass, while the rugby ball is meant to be easier to kick.

Bigger trouble for us if that is so.

Also, both Steeden & Gilbert are owned by Gray-Nicolls (cricket bat manufacturer)

You may well be right in terms of league and union balls, but the difference between a league and union ball is marginal at best.

 

[Pfitzy]

Different sweet spots on each ball. At the top level the Union ball has a much juicier, rounded shape and corresponding sweet spot. The league ball is a little more pointy and is less forgiving BUT as Braveheart says above, they're generally not kicking from much more than 30 metres, even if it is from the sideline.

Just on the AFL. Has anyone seen the standard of kicking in that competition lately? I wouldn't bank on the answers being there. On the sidelines of my boy's Aussie Rules games on the weekend nearly every week I hear a lot of the parents bemoaning how poorly elite level players kick the ball. There are some kids in the U/13's who do it better and more consistently.

Sure that's not just parents bitching about their team? There are probably kids that kick more consistently at U13 level for their age, because they're physically able to dominate and not expend as much energy.

The AFL guys are burning energy and oxygen to a degree that its not surprising they muff the odd kick on the run, and even the set shots where they overthink it.


As @ForceFan says above: its amazing that kicking isn't a major thing taught at the lower level. I coach a bloke who has played rugby all his life, including being a winger for NSW age rep teams, and his kicking style was shit. I sorted it out in about 3 minutes.

So many guys I see in professional league and union just throw the ball in front of them and hoik their leg at it with all they can muster. Hideous, round-swing action. My Dad, who played country town Aussie Rules footy in South Australia as a younger man, would always laugh at the rugby league players who could barely gain 20 metres on a touch finder.

There is a place for the techniques in AFL to be applied to Union or League, but the difference in ball physics is much more pronounced than between the two. So whatever coach you bring across has to familiarise themselves with the equipment for a long period.

In addition, the situational awareness required for kicking from the hand is different between Aussies Rules and Union, so that has to be taken into account.

That is mostly on the player to hone once the basics of position, foot movement, and purchase on the ball as well as follow-through. Its not difficult to train, and in fact is a lot like place kicking in terms of searching for consistency on a standard touch finder.

But in general play where the pressures are different, you need to practice many more styles of kicking.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Sure that's not just parents bitching about their team? There are probably kids that kick more consistently at U13 level for their age, because they're physically able to dominate and not expend as much energy.

The AFL guys are burning energy and oxygen to a degree that its not surprising they muff the odd kick on the run, and even the set shots where they overthink it.

Possibly

The biggest issue is actually set shots for goal. The amount of blokes who miss getable kicks in that league blows my mind. So again, the AFL aren't necessarily the standard bearers in this regard. Then of course there are your points on ball physics differences between the three codes.

 

[Braveheart81]

One thing that has changed in AFL is that there is now less room for the big bodied forward who is a gun kick from a set shot (i.e. Tony Lockett).

They players have to do so many more kilometres during a game that the focus has shifted onto elite runners.

 

[tragic]

That is telling. The skill deficit in the Australian players has nothing to do with desire or innate skills and everything about proper critique and coaching. Is there anybody on this forum who'd honestly say that Farrell is a better 10 than Foley? If they truly think that they have a very poor understanding of the game. Farrell is a good player and undisputedly the best goal kicker in the world. But the hysteria around the series loss is focussed totally on selections with a little real thought about what caused the major differences in the sides.

I see so much from people attacking their usual favourite targets for vitriol. Skelton, Palu, Phipps, Foley and Horne.

Should it be surprising that all those named who seem to get nearly of the hate mail are Tahs? No, not really when I look at the authors.
.

It's interesting there are a small nucleus of parochial tahs on this forum who are vocal and quick to jump on the bandwagon with back handed derision as soon as someone criticizes one of their own.
You need to look at "the authors" a little more closely - many of the more balanced tahs fans on this forum have also suggested skeletons performance was not at the level expected. Many have also highlighted the lack of kicking ability of foley or the erratic passing of Phipps. But it's easier to build the straw man of one eyed anti tah sentiment then burn it down than accept there were some serious deficiencies in the players you have outlined which need to be addressed.

 

[fatprop]

I do get amused with this continual drive for kicking & bathroom coaches. Shouldn't this stuff be sorted out at provincial level? Two weeks isn't going to make up for the last 20


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[wamberal]

I do get amused with this continual drive for kicking & bathroom coaches. Shouldn't this stuff be sorted out at provincial level? Two weeks isn't going to make up for the last 20


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Hah hah. Funny, eh? We can't kick, so we should just put our fingers in our ears and cover our eyes and the problem will go away.

 

[No4918]

Ledesma gets to all the franchises and work with U20's etc. doesn't he? Surely a full time kicking coach could travel in a similar fashion.

 

[Quick Hands]

I do get amused with this continual drive for kicking & bathroom coaches. Shouldn't this stuff be sorted out at provincial level? Two weeks isn't going to make up for the last 20


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It should be sorted out well before provincial level, but the fact is that it's not. Have a look at the recent 20s performances - you'll see players who are really very good at the general aspects of the game, but quite poor in specialised, position specific skills.

Kicking is one, throwing is another and we even have the situation where despite a good scrum we have a No 8 who can't control the ball at the back of the scrum - not once or twice but almost every scrum win. At one point when we were within a try we should have scored from a 5 m attacking scrum, but ended up conceding one at the other end because of this. 14 point turnaround - game over.

No one seems to want to take ownership at any level.

 

[ExiledinBorders]

I haven't really got into this debate. But my thoughts.
#2 playing #3. Wallabies playing shite and England playing the best they have for years, still relatively narrow losses.
Lots (and I mean lots) of room for improvement from Aus, little for England.

Congratulations to England for peaking for the 2015 RWC, in the 2016 rebuilding year.

Leaving aside the sarcasm in the last paragraph I do not know why you think England cannot improve. They have a good stream of young talent as exemplified by winning three out of the last four under 20s world cups.


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[tragic]

Leaving aside the sarcasm in the last paragraph I do not know why you think England cannot improve. They have a good stream of young talent as exemplified by winning three out of the last four under 20s world cups.


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Country most likely to next challenge the ABs unchallenged run of dominance. Not yet with the current side but in the run up towards the next World Cup.

 

[Gnostic]

I do get amused with this continual drive for kicking & bathroom coaches. Shouldn't this stuff be sorted out at provincial level? Two weeks isn't going to make up for the last 20





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And when I have argued for it at Provincial level people have made similar comments that Super coaches don't have the time in a fast season where the loss of a couple of games can end a season.

So is it a situation where nobody says, shit this needs to be addressed and fixes it because it isn't their problem?

 

[Gnostic]

It's interesting there are a small nucleus of parochial tahs on this forum who are vocal and quick to jump on the bandwagon with back handed derision as soon as someone criticizes one of their own.

You need to look at "the authors" a little more closely - many of the more balanced tahs fans on this forum have also suggested skeletons performance was not at the level expected. Many have also highlighted the lack of kicking ability of foley or the erratic passing of Phipps. But it's easier to build the straw man of one eyed anti tah sentiment then burn it down than accept there were some serious deficiencies in the players you have outlined which need to be addressed.

That is laughable. I assume you are calling me a parochial Tahs fan. Me who was perhaps the most vehement anti-Tahs management and coaching person this site has seen in the days of Link, Hickey and Foley. To the point the Mods wished I'd just %$#% off. Indeed have a look at my posts about the Tahs play in nearly every game excepting the one against the Chiefs this year. I may well have been a Tahs supporter for 30 something years, but one eyed and a blind supporter, I don't think anybody can make that claim and be regarded seriously.

The criticism stands, as does the more important parts of the post, regarding the reasons for those selections and why they played as they did.

 

[tragic]

That is laughable. I assume you are calling me a parochial Tahs fan.

Not really.
Your post was just the one that pushed the button.
it was just a general observation that a few people on this forum who seem to have valid and well thought out arguments are often backhanded by the same group of people because their arguments involve tahs players.
Your comment about "the authors" just happened to fit with that observation.

 

[teach]

Leaving aside the sarcasm in the last paragraph I do not know why you think England cannot improve. They have a good stream of young talent as exemplified by winning three out of the last four under 20s world cups.

1. I thought it was quite funny congratulating England for peaking about ten months too late. Still do.

2. Current England team and game pattern unlikely to improve much. My opinion. Probably wrong, but mine anyway.

3. U20 world cups don't mean much. Australia has never won it, SA has won it once and look how they have ranked over that time.


Not sure how England U20s select their team, but NZ rugby clearly takes the view that embedding skills in players starts early. The NZ U20s focus on skill development rather than bulking up means they will occasionally be outmuscled. But long term suits the goal of AB dominance.

 

[dru]

England oozing confidence. Eddie in 2016 has focussed on getting England to be England. He's barely started on the path to broader team skill sets than the English fare. The English game is to be a background given as he builds a broader game.

Just plenty of improvement left.

 

[ExiledinBorders]

1. I thought it was quite funny congratulating England for peaking about ten months too late. Still do.

2. Current England team and game pattern unlikely to improve much. My opinion. Probably wrong, but mine anyway.

3. U20 world cups don't mean much. Australia has never won it, SA has won it once and look how they have ranked over that time.


Not sure how England U20s select their team, but NZ rugby clearly takes the view that embedding skills in players starts early. The NZ U20s focus on skill development rather than bulking up means they will occasionally be outmuscled. But long term suits the goal of AB dominance.

I disagree. U20s does reflect future senior performance. Up until four years ago New Zealand dominated winning all the cups. That HAS been translated into the success of the senior team. During that period Aus and SA did not win but were reasonably strong that is also reflected in their rankings of third and fourth. England have revamped their development systems over the last few years and are now producing better young players both physically and technically.

We will see but I am pretty confident that England will very rapidly improve when players such as Mallinder come through.


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[teach]

I disagree. U20s does reflect future senior performance. Up until four years ago New Zealand dominated winning all the cups. That HAS been translated into the success of the senior team. During that period Aus and SA did not win but were reasonably strong that is also reflected in their rankings of third and fourth. England have revamped their development systems over the last few years and are now producing better young players both physically and technically.

We will see but I am pretty confident that England will very rapidly improve when players such as Mallinder come through.


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So we agree that England will improve when the products of a revamped development system come through. I just doubt that the existing players can show massive improvement. They can player a better game plan and their maybe some fitness improvements and better player selections. But the core skills are some way away from catching up to the ABs. I think the Bledisloe results will give a better indication of where England are at the moment, depending on if the ABs lose, thrash or squeak through against Aus.

I still have my doubts about the U20s being too meaningful due to the nature of the tournament. One bad game or one bad call, you can be out.

 

[Tip]

I think the Bledisloe results will give a better indication of where England are at the moment, depending on if the ABs lose, thrash or squeak through against Aus.

NZ is on top of Everest

Aus & England just battled for the top of Kosciuszko

 

[Scrubber2050]

Opinion of Tim Horan went down a bit when he described Stephen Moore as the "inspirational captain" - fuck I nearly choked