Waratahs v Cheetahs, Round 11, 7 May 2016

[barbarian]

I can't have the challenge system. What if your captain is on the bottom of a ruck when a dubious call is made? What if he's on the wing when a hand goes in the ruck 30m away?

I actually think the current system is the best we've had. Allows for sensible reviews of tries and foul play without bogging the game down, and the correct call is made 95% of the time, as it was with the Folau try.
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[Pfitzy]

Vice-captain. Other players. Eyeballs. Humans. See?

Like cricket, the skipper gets the final say, based on what his players are telling him, if he wasn't there.

 

[ChargerWA]

I'm of the opinion that forward passes and knock ons shouldn't be reviewable unless it's in the 22.

As Dismal calls all of these reviews that get try's turned around, the Stiffy killing effect.

The fact is if you went back and dissected every decent passage of you play you could find something wrong in every single one. Just because a try is scored it somehow requires a different level of review. Not a fan at all. The truth is it probably disadvantages teams who try to play some rugby. Not the other way round as it should be.

 

[ForceFan]

For those who may be interested, Ruck Involvements for the Waratahs Forwards against the Cheetahs.


Remember:
1. Early means 1st or 2nd of player’s team AFTER the ball carrier has been tackled and brought to ground.
2. Impact means active engagement: strong physical contact, changed shape of ruck, clean-out, protecting ball etc. (more than hand on someone’s bum or arriving after the hard work has been done). Yes it’s subjective - but as I collect all data at least it’s consistent.
3. Impact DOES NOT equate to Effectiveness. I’ve concluded that coming up with an effectiveness measure is just too hard in the time that I have available – but open to suggestions.

Involvements over time

Waratahs had 56% Possession and were generally standing off Rucks in defence.

 

[Lindommer]

I must confess I was surprised that "final try" went to the TMO, I thought the protocol adopted this year restricted the TMO to the grounding of the ball when scoring a try/touch when scoring a try/foul play. Obviously I'm wrong.


Watching it live, albeit from the upper deck towards the other end, I thought it could've been a tad forward.....

 

[cyclopath]

I generally think too many things are reviewed in the course of a game currently, BUT, I have no issue with this call - they reviewed it, they got it right, so it's the right outcome.
I get it more with sideline tries and possible "in touch", dodgy groundings and so on. I hope we don't move too much towards most tries being reviewed with open parameters.
No complaints with this one though.

 

[fatprop]

It was a pretty strange game, the Tahs never looked like losing, but never looked really on top.

We dominated their reserve front row and had sort of parity when their "A" set came on.

Kellaway looked liked he has been a super rugby player for years and Robinson looked OK again (his decision making is still on the up and he got too excited after his first excellent kick) while Phipps, Foley & Beale just look seriously theatening

 

[barbarian]

Vice-captain. Other players. Eyeballs. Humans. See?

Like cricket, the skipper gets the final say, based on what his players are telling him, if he wasn't there.

It's completely different to cricket. You have a WK directly in line, and a bowler as well. You have generally three or four blokes right around the bat who can make (relatively) informed decisions about what happened and whether a challenge is appropriate.

In rugby you've got blokes all over the shop, who are all focussed on different things - some are competing the ruck, some are looking at the defensive line, others are running into position. They are also out of breath most of the time, so their ability to make accurate decisions is impaired. Not to mention most of them don't even know the laws anyway.

Sure it might pick up something once every couple of games, but for all the wasted time 'consulting' among team-mates, reviewing plays etc. I don't think it would help the game at all. Let the player play, let the refs ref.
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[Braveheart81]

I think you'd need to make them coach's challenges like in the NFL.

Because there aren't guaranteed stops in play I think it would be hard to work and ultimately not the best outcome for the game.

I think the current use of the TMO is pretty good and agree with Barbarian that it is better to leave the refereeing to the referees.

 

[Lindommer]

A competent win by the Tahs. Nice to see they're improving as the season progresses. Essential the improvement continues as we prepare to meet the Kiwis.

A few thoughts:

• In the bigger picture it was sloppy of the Tahs not to get the third try, their last points were at about 42:40, no further points for nigh on half a match.
• It's wise to never under-estimate the effects of travel, Cape Town>Jo'burg>Sydney for the Tahs compared to Brisbane>Sydney for the Cheetahs. Maybe that explains the somewhat insipid performance by the Tahs in the second half, although it was heartening to see their defensive standards didn't drop off in this period.
• I thought Gibson erred in the use of his bench in the second half. There's no doubt the Tahs were looking a bit jaded, which was contrasted even more so when the benchies came on after the 65 minute mark. Cliffy played surprisingly well, but, he's only good for 30 minutes or so, mistakes start to creep in when he tires. Didn't Hanigan look good when he finally got on the paddock? Won a lineout straight away, competed well at the breakdown and carted the pill up strongly, before spilling it! I'd like to see how he goes starting, Mumm looks as if he needs a rest.
• To watch a 2016 Tahs scrum dish up a Saffer one for two consecutive weeks was wonderful. I cast some doubt on Blades' coaching ability after the first few rounds, I beg forgiveness, Cam. Some ruthless selections and I imagine a shitload of hard work have certainly paid off here. Is Ryan finally getting the hang of LHP play here? He still seems to set up with his feet too far back resulting in the odd grass kiss, but we're now winning scrums! Isn't young Robertson coming along nicely. I've also noticed no heads up with all eight pushing, a novel idea.
• Bob Dwyer's remarks about Hooper seem to've stirred Michael into action, he was superb on the ball. And led from the front well.
• The Tah backs look to be coming together well with Izzy wearing 13. Rob Horne did a power of unseen work cleaning up the odd Cheetah break as well as loose ball by the Tahs. Robinson's looking a little more comfortable in rugby (Reece, fer Chrissake get some boots with studs). Kellaway's all class, what a tackle!
• The rise of the newby youngsters at the Tahs is very encouraging for the future: Roach, Robertson, Hanigan, Dempsey, Holloway, Horwitz and Kellaway should all be signed up on long-term contracts.
• I'll finish off on a very promising note: Nic Berry did a superb job with the whistle, I hardly noticed him. This is progress for Australian rugby, we need more former elite players in the reffing ranks.

added, dunno HTF I missed Jed.

 

[boyo]

I generally think too many things are reviewed in the course of a game currently

Yes, the referees need to make a greater number of decisions themselves (in consultation with the ARs) rather than relying on the TMO.

 

[Froggy]

Lindommer,

Agree wholeheartedly, add Holloway to your list!

 

[Scrubber2050]

Yes, the referees need to make a greater number of decisions themselves (in consultation with the ARs) rather than relying on the TMO.

I'd be happy with more TMO involvement.

Referees make mistakes regularly. AR's the same.

We have the technology so why not use it. If a difference of opinion between Ref and TMO then Ref's ultimate call. Ref is always going to the replay and TMO for anything that looks like a challenge in the air (fair enough I reckon)

I absolutely hate a rugby match being decided by a shit Ref's call or should I say a Ref's shit call.

 

[ForceFan]

I'd be happy with more TMO involvement.

Referees make mistakes regularly. AR's the same.

We have the technology so why not use it. If a difference of opinion between Ref and TMO then Ref's ultimate call. Ref is always going to the replay and TMO for anything that looks like a challenge in the air (fair enough I reckon)

I absolutely hate a rugby match being decided by a shit Ref's call or should I say a Ref's shit call.

Or the lack of calls from the Refs on "L" plates at Super Rugby level.

 

[Brumby Runner]

• The rise of the newby youngsters at the Tahs is very encouraging for the future. Roach, Robertson, Hanigan, Dempsey, Holloway, Horwitz and Kellaway should all be signed up on long-term contracts.

The emergence of these players is a great positive for the Tahs and for Aus rugby across the board. I can see most rising to Wallaby status in the next year or so - Holloway as soon as he gets over his injury imo.

 

[Hawko]

For those who may be interested, Ruck Involvements for the Waratahs Forwards against the Cheetahs.

Tom Robertson hits 16 rucks in 59 minutes! This is the sort of THP I like to see. Only the energiser bunny hit more per minute. And he gave his (admittedly inexperienced) opposition front row an absolute mullering.

Sometimes you throw an unknown in there and he comes up gold. Hanigan hit a few rucks too, I hope he develops like Robertson has.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If I were a Tahs fan I'd be very happy with the last couple of weeks. They've beaten the Stormers in Cape Town, travelled huge distances and comfortably beaten the Cheetahs in Sydney, dealt with a fairly high injury toll and also blooded some youngsters. That young prop Robertson looks a find, as do Kellaway and Hanigan. Kurtley is in career best form and Hooper is answering his critics in the best way possible.

It all looks positive for mine.

 

[Braveheart81]

Agreed. Three wins in a row is a big deal when before this run we had only won two games in total.

This Saturday will be a big test against the Bulls. It is clearly a must win game and it is important we play better than we did against the Cheetahs.

You'd hope with the full week in Sydney and a longer gap from a lot of squad getting sick thanks to Dean Mumm they'll be in better shape.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Yeah massive game against the Bulls. The Brumbies showed they are beatable, even with a dysfunctional backline, though tempered by the Bulls not getting the rub of the green with the ref. The Tahs with the way they are playing right now should be a real chance of knocking them over.

 

[PaarlBok]

Ja Waratahs by 50. No way the Bulls can stand up after losing to the Brumbies.