• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Waratahs v Jaguares, Round 16 - Saturday 8 July, Allianz Stadium

Status
Not open for further replies.

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I have to disagree. You play how you train. All the things you speak of suggests that their training isn't preparing them properly.


Sure, that may well be the case, but again it's an aptitude thing. If the players aren't applying themselves at training then they aren't going to suddenly start doing it at games.

I'm not excusing Gibson here in any way but the players need to take responsibility as well. They have to turn up and focus at training and then replicate that during games. This season they just haven't done that.

They are not small children. They are professional sportsmen who need to be completely focused when training and playing.

It is not like those players didn't know where they should be positioned or what their role was when there. They just weren't focused on completing it.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Why is that though?


Who knows. There are lots of players who are performing well below their best.

This is a very difficult competition though and players who are not completely committed both physically and mentally to the entirety of their training and playing will get found out as the Tahs have been this season.

I am hesitant to put it all down to the coach.

These are professional players, many with vast experience including at test level who just aren't focused on the task at hand.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Sure, that may well be the case, but again it's an aptitude thing. If the players aren't applying themselves at training then they aren't going to suddenly start doing it at games.

I'm not excusing Gibson here in any way but the players need to take responsibility as well. They have to turn up and focus at training and then replicate that during games. This season they just haven't done that.

They are not small children. They are professional sportsmen who need to be completely focused when training and playing.

It is not like those players didn't know where they should be positioned or what their role was when there. They just weren't focused on completing it.
I absolutely accept that the players are professional sportsmen and bear responsible for performance. However, the role of the professional coach is to prepare the players to perform at their best week in week out. For whatever reason Gibson isn't doing this. Their performances smack of near enough is good enough preparation. This is supported by Cheika's observation that the players weren't fit enough when they arrived at Wallaby camp. That's a fairly damning observation by any standard.
The career of a professional coach relies on (a) winning and (b) improving the team and/or players. We're not seeing evidence of either
 

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
Who knows. There are lots of players who are performing well below their best.

This is a very difficult competition though and players who are not completely committed both physically and mentally to the entirety of their training and playing will get found out as the Tahs have been this season.

I am hesitant to put it all down to the coach.

These are professional players, many with vast experience including at test level who just aren't focused on the task at hand.

I don't buy it. This is the cream of Australian rugby. It's not as if there are better players out there. This side is top heavy with Wallabies. Cheika was able to motivate them to perform at near the best of their ability.
I have not seen the game BTW. There are reports in the media that the coach is losing the players and they have severely under performed this year, as have the Reds. Coaching and all around preparation must play a big part for both of these sides.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I don't buy it. This is the cream of Australian rugby. It's not as if there are better players out there. This side is top heavy with Wallabies. Cheika was able to motivate them to perform at near the best of their ability.
I have not seen the game BTW. There are reports in the media that the coach is losing the players and they have severely under performed this year, as have the Reds. Coaching and all around preparation must play a big part for both of these sides.


He hasn't done that since 2015.

I am not trying to excuse Gibson here and I think he could have easily lost some of the playing group and certainly isn't producing the standard required.

The players have to take a lot of responsibility though. If these were players getting found out in technical areas such as set piece, defensive patterns and attacking plays but aside from that were individually performing to high levels then I would say it was all down to coaching, but it simply isn't the case.

As I said, two tries were the direct result of the first pillar defender being sold a simple dummy. These aren't guys who didn't know their role etc. they had a lapse in concentration at a key moment and made a trivial but critical error. The players have to take responsibility for that.

At Wallaby level we are gifting the opposition two tries a game with basic errors. I think there is a lot of evidence that our players are not performing at close to the level required and a lot of that has to come down to the players. Their required preparation extends well beyond what happens when they are at training. Assuming that the preparation done by NZ players begins and ends with their structured training sessions would be naive and incredibly far from the truth in my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gel

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
If these players are the cream of Australian rugby they should not really need a coach to rev them up. They should be going out onto the pitch ready to play like professionals, not like pampered pussies.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
He hasn't done that since 2015.

I am not trying to excuse Gibson here and I think he could have easily lost some of the playing group and certainly isn't producing the standard required.

The players have to take a lot of responsibility though. If these were players getting found out in technical areas such as set piece, defensive patterns and attacking plays but aside from that were individually performing to high levels then I would say it was all down to coaching, but it simply isn't the case.

As I said, two tries were the direct result of the first pillar defender being sold a simple dummy. These aren't guys who didn't know their role etc. they had a lapse in concentration at a key moment and made a trivial but critical error. The players have to take responsibility for that.

At Wallaby level we are gifting the opposition two tries a game with basic errors. I think there is a lot of evidence that our players are not performing at close to the level required and a lot of that has to come down to the players. Their required preparation extends well beyond what happens when they are at training. Assuming that the preparation done by NZ players begins and ends with their structured training sessions would be naive and incredibly far from the truth in my opinion.
That's what I've been banging on about now for months. The players need to take some ownership of their performances and do the extras necessary to succeed. It's not just what happens at the formal training sessions.
 

A mutterer

Chilla Wilson (44)
If these players are the cream of Australian rugby they should not really need a coach to rev them up. They should be going out onto the pitch ready to play like professionals, not like pampered pussies.


i think hooper needs to wear some of this as captain.

imagine in any other workplace you get to blame the boss because you're "not feeling him" and turn in consistent substandard performances.

petition to bring back the waugh death stare!
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Sure, that may well be the case, but again it's an aptitude thing. If the players aren't applying themselves at training then they aren't going to suddenly start doing it at games.

I'm not excusing Gibson here in any way but the players need to take responsibility as well. They have to turn up and focus at training and then replicate that during games. This season they just haven't done that.

They are not small children. They are professional sportsmen who need to be completely focused when training and playing.

It is not like those players didn't know where they should be positioned or what their role was when there. They just weren't focused on completing it.

I'd like to agree with you so we could share the blame around, but it is the coach's key function to demand top performance from his players and then to act if he doesn't get it.

This year Gibson needed to:
  • Tell Hanigan, Dempsey, Wells and Holloway to get into the gym and not to come out until they had good core strength and 10 extra kg. None of them can lay on a dominant tackle.
  • Run 4 X 1 hour special training sessions each week for all the backs to improve their field kicking. Send players back to Shute if it didn't show results.
  • Get extra locks from somewhere that are genuine rock-shifters. Mumm and Hanigan are 6's, not locks at Super level. We had Skelton, Toleafoa and McDuling and those three locks do not make a super squad.
  • Make Robertson play up to his ability. Even if his replacement is crap, dropping him we win in the long run if Robertson gets better. Last season he was better than this season.
I could go on, there are issues everywhere, but ultimately the difference between good and bad coaches is that good coaches never accept poor performance and act on it immediately. Poor performances have been accepted this year from week one and only bad coaches allow that to happen.

And don't get me started on Gibson's squad selection.

In 2014 I attended a couple of Waratah training sessions. For some of the drills I thought I'd gone into a time warp and it was actually game day. Training was not intense it was thunderous. Cheika demanded train how you play. He knew that when you dominate the game you actually get less injuries to your own team and more to the other team. So they were battle-hardened by game day.
Not any more!
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
  • Get extra locks from somewhere that are genuine rock-shifters. Mumm and Hanigan are 6's, not locks at Super level. We had Skelton, Toleafoa and McDuling and those three locks do not make a super squad./quote]

Staniforth is heading to the Tahs in 2018. He will add a lot of stiffness to the forwards defense while also being exceptional value at lineout time. He is not so impressive with ball in hand, but his strength in contact and ability to hold the ball carrier up will be invaluable. My tip is that with some time in the blue jersey he will be on track to make the Wallabies. Might not have happened so quickly at the Brumbies where he is behind Arnold, Carter and Enever, fighting for scraps of game time.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
I'd like to agree with you so we could share the blame around, but it is the coach's key function to demand top performance from his players and then to act if he doesn't get it.

This year Gibson needed to:
  • Tell Hanigan, Dempsey, Wells and Holloway to get into the gym and not to come out until they had good core strength and 10 extra kg. None of them can lay on a dominant tackle.
  • Run 4 X 1 hour special training sessions each week for all the backs to improve their field kicking. Send players back to Shute if it didn't show results.
  • Get extra locks from somewhere that are genuine rock-shifters. Mumm and Hanigan are 6's, not locks at Super level. We had Skelton, Toleafoa and McDuling and those three locks do not make a super squad.
  • Make Robertson play up to his ability. Even if his replacement is crap, dropping him we win in the long run if Robertson gets better. Last season he was better than this season.
I could go on, there are issues everywhere, but ultimately the difference between good and bad coaches is that good coaches never accept poor performance and act on it immediately. Poor performances have been accepted this year from week one and only bad coaches allow that to happen.

And don't get me started on Gibson's squad selection.

In 2014 I attended a couple of Waratah training sessions. For some of the drills I thought I'd gone into a time warp and it was actually game day. Training was not intense it was thunderous. Cheika demanded train how you play. He knew that when you dominate the game you actually get less injuries to your own team and more to the other team. So they were battle-hardened by game day.
Not any more!
Any coach in this country that demands what you've just posted would be thrown under the bus by the players.

Here's why:

http://rupa.com.au

The players in this country are in complete control and they know it. The pivotal moment was when Link treated the players like adults, they failed and then royally fucked him over.
 

KiwiM

Nev Cottrell (35)
The coach is responsible for the product on the field. Culture starts from the coach down. It is up to the coach to set the culture, select the right players, get them fit and also surround himself with a good support staff.

I've seen this happen with my Blues. You select a proper captain, get good assistant coaches and good structures in place, select the right players and you can turn things around.

Umaga took over a team that was 3 wins and 13 losses and had not won an away game in 3 seasons.

Assuming Blues can beat Sunwolves this weekend (which I think is a fair assumptions) in two seasons since Umaga took over, combined the Blues will have won 17, drawn 2 and lost 12. The only loss outside of NZ this season being a controversial one to the Stormers. This is all without a class 10, or in the Tahs case, without a 10 as good as Foley.

I watched this game and kept a specific eye on Michael Hooper.

Here are some rough stats

2 missed tackles, 3 penalties conceded, 1 knock on and 3 poor passes (2 leading to knock ons the other was a hospital pass).

I think what's missed in a lot of the analysis is analysis of Hooper's game itself. He has a lot of involvement but doesn't seem to play the role of an actual 7 but more of a loose/midfield back hybrid, kind of like Adam Thomson used to for the Highlanders.

Hooper plays nothing close to the style of a Cane or an OBrien who were both sensational for the ABs and Lions respectively. They both have size, love the confrontation/are physical, will hit rucks, make big tackles and make tough pilfers. Hooper is much different and I think his game stands out at Super level where it is more open and he can run around like a back but not so much test style where it is confrontation, physicality, tough yards, a grind.

He obviously is getting bugger all support from the rest of his pack but I think its not a coincidence that Hooper had little impact against what is essentially a test pack for the Jaguares (coming off of a series of tests against England).

To me Hooper is not a captain, he has often made some weird on field calls (turning down points when on offer) and seems to have this deluded optimism when interviewed. I've seen similar traits in plenty of poor Blues captains over the years.

I'm not pinning this all on Hooper - he obviously gets bugger all support from his forward pack and other leaders but I think a fresh start is needed. Let him focus on playing 7 and get someone else to be the captain, let him play a support leadership role.

Often the best Super Rugby captains are not superstars but more tradesman types (e.g. Xavier Rush Blues, Todd Blackadder Crusaders, Craig Clarke Chiefs, Dave Dennis Tahs etc)
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
KiwiM:
Hooper's big tackles and line busts are due to his speed off the mark and crazy leg drive in contact.
He does get easily moved at the breakdown so has to be there some time before opponents arrive in order to secure a penalty or a turnover. That has happened so he's not a waste in this aspect of the game.
I agree that he is going to struggle in a forward pack that is also lightweight in the other positions. A coach needs to balance the pack around Hooper's unique skills.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Hooper had a pretty poor game by his standards but still topped the tackle count for the Tahs and had the second most run metres amongst Tahs forwards.

He missed 3 tackles and gave away 2 penalties.

Hanigan missed 5 tackles (with only 6 made), Wells 3, Mumm 2 (with only 4 made).

Wells also gave away 2 penalties.

The Tahs were altogether awful, particularly the forwards. Hooper was still one of their best despite having close to his quietest game of the season.
 

KiwiM

Nev Cottrell (35)
KiwiM:
I agree that he is going to struggle in a forward pack that is also lightweight in the other positions. A coach needs to balance the pack around Hooper's unique skills.


Completely agree. 2014 Tahs pack had a lot of size and aggression to compliment.

The Wallabies problems at 6 and 8 over the last few years (and lock until last year) have not helped Hooper or Pocock. You can see why the Tahs and Wallabies like Hanigan with his size and raw tools but yes with stats like that he is a long way off the level required.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Half of the Tahs defensive problems come down to mental aptitude and concentration in my opinion.

Two tries were the direct result of the first pillar at the ruck (Mumm then Hanigan) not paying attention and being sold the simplest of dummies which resulted in tries. It happened a third time almost resulting in a try as well.

These things have nothing to do with coaching. The player is there, they know what they are meant to be doing and then they lose concentration at a critical time and fail to do their job.

That was very poor by the Waratahs. Their general aptitude this season has been dire.

Surely you are not serious?

Why do the world's best pro teams invest markedly and increasingly in highly specialised 'mental skills' and 'sports psych' coaches?

Of the 20 or so reasons, one is certainly to deal with the dimensions of human athletic skill in team sports of exactly the type and kind to which you refer.

'Mental aptitude and concentration' (your words) in demanding elite team sports can be affected by a huge range of alterable human psychology, S&C and team culture variables: fatigue, low inner psych confidence team-wise or individually, unclarity in preparedness and tactical agreement within a team as to how respond and play, poor team morale, an excessively individualistic micro-culture within the team that mitigates against close-in player-to-player trust, poor preparedness to handle pressure contexts, etc, etc. These and other related variables can all be managed and potentially improved by the right type of insight and specialist coaching support.

To say these parameters 'have nothing to do with coaching' (you are of course I assume an expert in such matters in speaking so boldly as you do) is, bluntly, a 1980s definition of team management thinking to put it most politely.

If you fail to grasp my points, please carefully study the NZ rugby career of one Glibert Enoka, the Mental Skills Coach of the ABs (and now taking on a far bigger role across all of NZ rugby) in just this area of expertise. To get started re Enoka and what he thinks and brings have a look at:

https://www.gameplan-a.com/2017/03/make-mental-strength-your-strongest-skill/

There's much more available re his seminal work in this area re the ABs. Why do we think they are so sustainedly successful? One reason: in their coaching capabilities they map every critical performance and skills parameter and detail, not just some.

I have been saying for years here and otherwise that Australian elite rugby - and especially the Wallabies - need our own version of Gilbert Enoka.

Mental skills, team culture (in the deep not superficial meaning of that term) and individual player psych development are simply a huge part of building successful teams and more particularly sustainable and repetitive success vs 'every 20 year one-off outliers'.

And moreover the inferred notion that somehow the 'players should take responsibility and just sharpen up and fix these issues themselves' is a combination of (a) the utterly naive (humans in teams rarely fix their own mentally- or team culture-based based frailties, they almost always need assistance of one type or another particularly in even becoming aware of what is happening to, or inside, them) and (b) passively abrogating the clear responsibilities of modern elite HCs to diagnose attitudinal, emotional, cultural, confidence, concentration etc etc issues within their teams and subsequently engage the right specialist resources to fix them.

Waiting and hoping that such problems and deficiencies will just auto-magically fix themselves with a win here and there is a reckless, high-risk HC strategy. Assuming you want your RU to avoid bankruptcy, that is.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
That wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

Clearly one of the biggest issues with the Tahs this year has been losing games due to periods where they just went completely absent and that needs to be addressed.

I was trying to differentiate between things that relate to structures which I think are solely the responsibility of the coaching staff and things that I think the players have a considerable amount of responsibility for.

You'd be upset if the kid in your under 12s side standing one spot off the breakdown just ran away and let the opposition player run straight through with a little dummy because they should know better and they should be concentrating on their job at hand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gel
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top