Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/rug...should-go-it-alone/ar-AAxtpRU?ocid=spartandhp

You know it is really dead and buried when media starts publishing this sort of stuff. Looks like media caught up with what you have been saying for the last 10 years half.

Super Rugby really is dead as I certainly have no interest and nor do my rugby mates. Shute shield and Twiggy rugby yes. NRC like to watch but now cancelled my Foxtel subscription means won't be able to watch it.

Firstly takes brains and then balls to do it strategically and with right support including financial (cough...twiggy)


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[Quick Hands]

Balls, spines, and other cliches.


It is not about backing ourselves, it is about establishing a product that somebody will pay money for. That takes brains, not balls or spines.


Something that you do not seem to know much about, frankly, mate.

On another thread you decry the lack of civility and complain about people throwing insults around and then you post something like this?

 

[kiap]

Nah, it's okay. I actually don't mind taking the occasional jibe, QH.

Besides, as they say … no brain, no pain!

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

On another thread you decry the lack of civility and complain about people throwing insults around and then you post something like this?

He's only interested in civility as long as he see's it coming his way. But it doesn't apply to what he says.

 

[Quick Hands]

Nah, it's okay. I actually don't mind taking the occasional jibe, QH.

Besides, as they say … no brain, no pain!

Indeed, those of us who identified much of what is now happening were for years dismissed and insulted on these threads. Only when the full scope of the incompetence and strategic failures byy ARU/NSWRU/QRU became too great to be contested have many posters come around to the reality of the mess the game is in. As you can see, there are still a few who will go down, guns blazing in defence of the administration, as the gunwhales sink below the waves.

 

[wamberal]

Indeed, those of us who identified much of what is now happening were for years dismissed and insulted on these threads. Only when the full scope of the incompetence and strategic failures byy ARU/NSWRU/QRU became too great to be contested have many posters come around to the reality of the mess the game is in. As you can see, there are still a few who will go down, guns blazing in defence of the administration, as the gunwhales sink below the waves.

Dear oh bloody dear. Guns blazing. Gunwhales sinking. Have you ever thought about writing some kids comic books?

 

[Tomikin]

Indeed, those of us who identified much of what is now happening were for years dismissed and insulted on these threads. Only when the full scope of the incompetence and strategic failures byy ARU/NSWRU/QRU became too great to be contested have many posters come around to the reality of the mess the game is in. As you can see, there are still a few who will go down, guns blazing in defence of the administration, as the gunwhales sink below the waves.

I don't think they go down guns blazing slot are just being realistic..RA have public said they wanna fix super rugby.. May not be the best option..Im for telling everyone too get stuffed have an Australian product on FTA..and still play the RC games again NZ SA Argies and add Japan..

I want rugby in my timezone with local teams local talent..Yeah it might not be as high quality as NZ but we would win some games as it only be on teams plus Fiji..5 super teams west Sydney qld country..Adelaide team, maybe the Vikings from Canberra as they have the cash Could Canberra support two teams..dunno but they could import talent..

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[half]

Indeed, those of us who identified much of what is now happening were for years dismissed and insulted on these threads. Only when the full scope of the incompetence and strategic failures byy ARU/NSWRU/QRU became too great to be contested have many posters come around to the reality of the mess the game is in. As you can see, there are still a few who will go down, guns blazing in defence of the administration, as the gunwhales sink below the waves.

Yer and the same old same old, they struggle to think beyond what we have, in-spite of working models in other codes and other countries. I have reached a conclusion we don't have the neither the will or unity or the systems to effect change.

My hope is after the crash we have not lost out to other codes to the extent rebuilding is near impossible.

 

[Lorenzo]

Isnt RA kinda needing the SANZAR $$? Like, if the articles published in 2015 re the current TV deals are correct, they get 50m a year from the deal. How much could they realistically generate with alternatives?

Genuine question - don't know much about this stuff.

 

[Quick Hands]

Dear oh bloody dear. Guns blazing. Gunwhales sinking. Have you ever thought about writing some kids comic books?

Want something to read. You're the one in fairy land you cranky old fool.

 

[Quick Hands]

Isnt RA kinda needing the SANZAR $$? Like, if the articles published in 2015 re the current TV deals are correct, they get 50m a year from the deal. How much could they realistically generate with alternatives?

Genuine question - don't know much about this stuff.

It costs them more to run the super teams than the money they get from the broadcasting agreement. Not sure which thread the RA financials are on, but this has been discussed there.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Isnt RA kinda needing the SANZAR $$? Like, if the articles published in 2015 re the current TV deals are correct, they get 50m a year from the deal. How much could they realistically generate with alternatives?

Genuine question - don't know much about this stuff.

Nobody really knows what the tv networks around the world are paying for, but they are probably paying a lot more for the TRC and other test matches than they are for all of Super Rugby.

So if SANZAAR can keep the internationals, and each nation ran their own next tier comp, then maybe to drop super rugby isn't "that" bad from a broadcast money point of view.

Obviously there would be second order effects around South African availablity for the TRC window if they play in Europe, and the Wallabies might be even less competitive with the rest of the world with only a local comp to support them.





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[WorkingClassRugger]

Nobody really knows what the tv networks around the world are paying for, but they are probably paying a lot more for the TRC and other test matches than they are for all of Super Rugby.

So if SANZAAR can keep the internationals, and each nation ran their own next tier comp, then maybe to drop super rugby isn't "that" bad from a broadcast money point of view.

Obviously there would be second order effects around South African availablity for the TRC window if they play in Europe, and the Wallabies might be even less competitive with the rest of the world with only a local comp to support them.





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That's where the majority of the value lies from my understanding. In the Test match arena. Super Rugby Rugby is actually a loss leader. One that has become too much of one in many people's opinion. The key to any breakdown in the future is maintaining the international side of the alliance. Even growing it. But at this level. It's time to look beyond Super Rugby.

This would also open the door for other opportunities to compete with one another. A Champions League immediately springs to mind.

 

[kiap]

Isnt RA kinda needing the SANZAR $$?

Absolutely, they need dollars.

There is limited public transparency on the 2015 Ðollar$ --- other than the headline figure from the sale of the rights to SANZAAR's rugby "products". However … from previous deals, Super Rugby is the minority component of the revenue compared to the Test Match revenue.

It's filler for Pay TV programming slots. -- That's okay but it does not have a big audience. That audience is continuously dropping and the soup is not cheap to run, so it's becoming more and more of a loss-leader.

Now, the various income sources from around the world are pooled and then split among all of SANZAAR's members. Regions generating higher broadcast value tend to compensate the lower.

The big kicker in the last deal (that kept Bill Bulver's neck above water for around 12 months) came from the UK and was worth, if memory serves, an extra $10m+ or so a year to the ARU … without which Australian Rugby would have been screwed.

Of course it turned out they were screwed anyway, as they dropped from five teams to four + admitted they could really only afford three.

The thing is, though, with Supe ratings crashing through the floor (particularly in Australia) there is downward pressure on what RA can expect to command from its share of any future deal.

And the last deal wasn't enough.

Like, if the articles published in 2015 re the current TV deals are correct, they get 50m a year from the deal. How much could they realistically generate with alternatives?

So Test Matches would continue to be played. This is still the main TV revenue generator. Soup is not the full deal. Far from it.

And as far as replacing it in the calendar, I see two components.

• In the latter part of the season I'd advocate a champions league style comp (or comps) running a couple months. This would still involve SANZAAR and would replace a couple months worth of soup (for whatever that's worth …) within potentially the same markets that Supe is in now.

• For the main regular season -- a competition in our time zone. This would require a combination of increased private backing (e.g. Twiggy types) and possibly funding for a team like Fiji from WR (World Rugby). Even with that, there may be some cutting of the coat to suit the cloth.

In saying that, when something is dead, it's dead. You don't get a lot of choice on bringing back Soup when it's beyond repair.

On the upside, with control over teams and schedules + added marketing and lower overheads, the opportunity is there to lift the domestic numbers on ratings, attendance, and value which are currently on the floor.

It's a reset that Oz pro rugby badly needs.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yer and the same old same old, they struggle to think beyond what we have, in-spite of working models in other codes and other countries. I have reached a conclusion we don't have the neither the will or unity or the systems to effect change.

My hope is after the crash we have not lost out to other codes to the extent rebuilding is near impossible.

Isn’t what twiggy doing following what other codes done like cricket and big bash!

 

[dru]

So Test Matches would continue to be played. This is still the main TV revenue generator. Soup is not the full deal. Far from it.

And as far as replacing it in the calendar, I see two components.

• In the latter part of the season I'd advocate a champions league style comp (or comps) running a couple months. This would still involve SANZAAR and would replace a couple months worth of soup (for whatever that's worth …) within potentially the same markets that Supe is in now.

• For the main regular season -- a competition in our time zone. This would require a combination of increased private backing (e.g. Twiggy types) and possibly funding for a team like Fiji from WR (World Rugby). Even with that, there may be some cutting of the coat to suit the cloth.

In saying that, when something is dead, it's dead. You don't get a lot of choice on bringing back Soup when it's beyond repair.

On the upside, with control over teams and schedules + added marketing and lower overheads, the opportunity is there to lift the domestic numbers on ratings, attendance, and value which are currently on the floor.

It's a reset that Oz pro rugby badly needs.[/need to cut loosequote]

Kiap -it is obvious, isn't it? Writ large in flashing neon, how can the message be missed?

I'd add that the Super costs are very high, in part due to the horendous travel bill. Save this $ and reinvest into the new domestic teams.

I would advocate strongly for not getting involved with Fiji in a $package different from any other team. They either stay on their feet, or don't, just like the domestic rest. And of course I doubt very much that they can survive given their National economy, without assistance which we can not afford. It isnt anti Fiji who I would love to lift. But we need to get real, we are in survival mode and there is shed loads to be done before we can afford altruism.

Part of the problem is the Kiwis. I recognise what they give a comp, their world leadership; and talking about altruism - I recognise that they have and continue to assist Australia. BUT Survival mode here. Settling back into a domestic NZ comp is not going to suit the Kiwis. And if they come over to us, they wont take kindly to spreading the talent. Which means another lop-sided comp - deathnell to the new rugby before we even start.

Until the Kiwis truly understand the degree to which the Australia rugby problem becomes their problem (not is, but becomes) we need to cut loose. It's disappointing, but it isn't simply a matter whether they desire to come with us, but to start with, we must desire to NOT bring them with us. (On the grounds that appear to be the basis of any agreement that will be offered anyway.)

OR - let's see the alternative thinking out of the innovative nation of New Zealand. Don't waste our time with something packaged similar to Super. Don't waste our time with another international expansion. Don't waste our time with something that fails to provide Australia a national footprint. Don't waste our time with something that guarantees a lopsided competition. Don't waste our time with something that requires round-the-globe travel (we can't afford it nor can they). Don't waste our time with something that doesn't provide regular, predictable games in sensible time slots and that doesn't allow fans a logical schedule to build home support.

OK, OK. Maybe I need to lose the "don't waste our time with" ultimatums. We've been supported for a long time and should have the grace to openly appreciate it and to bend an ear genuinely willing to listen. I'm just recognising the difficulty here, in the bare-bones of what Australia needs to dig itself out of extinction, and that these are a very different set of desires to the those of a successful nation going from strength to strength.

 

[hoggy]

Kiap -it is obvious, isn't it? Writ large in flashing neon, how can the message be missed?

OK, OK. Maybe I need to lose the "don't waste our time with" ultimatums. We've been supported for a long time and should have the grace to openly appreciate it and to bend an ear genuinely willing to listen. I'm just recognising the difficulty here, in the bare-bones of what Australia needs to dig itself out of extinction, and that these are a very different set of desires to the those of a successful nation going from strength to strength.

"don't waste our time with" is the one thing we need to stick with. Rugby is in its present position because of all those compromises it has accepted over the last 20 years.

We haven't been supported, Did anyone think that was just free money, you get nothing for free. That wasn't support, it was a money lender, we sacrificed long term growth for short term cash and now its pay back time.

The one thing the game here will not survive is another short term cash grab

 

[joeyjohnz]

I would advocate strongly for not getting involved with Fiji in a $package different from any other team. They either stay on their feet, or don't, just like the domestic rest. And of course I doubt very much that they can survive given their National economy, without assistance which we can not afford. It isnt anti Fiji who I would love to lift. But we need to get real, we are in survival mode and there is shed loads to be done before we can afford altruism.

I'd strongly advocate the opposite, but for the same reasons.

Any "domestic" competition should include all three - so long as WR (World Rugby) are committed to continue to foot the travel bill. I'm not advocating their inclusion out of altruism; my motivations are purely selfish. We're in survival mode and struggling with any sort of market penetration.

We have 3 high quality teams on our doorstep, in our timezone, with huge ex-pat populations and a World Rugby administration finally putting their money where their mouth (see Drua funding arrangements for NRC) - we'd be absolutely daft not to include them in future plans. Do we really want to say no to 3 cost-neutral teams which in itself guarantees an extra 2 games per round for broadcasters? I find that very fiscally irresponsible

Even more so when you take in to consideration that Pacific Rugby League tests staged in Australia have attracted larger crowds than any of our Super sides this year. Just let that sink in a little.

More Australians want to watch Tonga vs. Samoa in League than the Tahs or Reds in Union.

We should harness that support, not just their players; borrow Twiggy's marketing team and turn home matches against Pacific teams into a celebration of Rugby.

Not only would the turnout would be better than Brumbies v Rebels. It'd also cost half as much.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Kiap -it is obvious, isn't it? Writ large in flashing neon, how can the message be missed?



I'd add that the Super costs are very high, in part due to the horendous travel bill. Save this $ and reinvest into the new domestic teams.



I would advocate strongly for not getting involved with Fiji in a $package different from any other team. They either stay on their feet, or don't, just like the domestic rest. And of course I doubt very much that they can survive given their National economy, without assistance which we can not afford. It isnt anti Fiji who I would love to lift. But we need to get real, we are in survival mode and there is shed loads to be done before we can afford altruism.



Part of the problem is the Kiwis. I recognise what they give a comp, their world leadership; and talking about altruism - I recognise that they have and continue to assist Australia. BUT Survival mode here. Settling back into a domestic NZ comp is not going to suit the Kiwis. And if they come over to us, they wont take kindly to spreading the talent. Which means another lop-sided comp - deathnell to the new rugby before we even start.



Until the Kiwis truly understand the degree to which the Australia rugby problem becomes their problem (not is, but becomes) we need to cut loose. It's disappointing, but it isn't simply a matter whether they desire to come with us, but to start with, we must desire to NOT bring them with us. (On the grounds that appear to be the basis of any agreement that will be offered anyway.)



OR - let's see the alternative thinking out of the innovative nation of New Zealand. Don't waste our time with something packaged similar to Super. Don't waste our time with another international expansion. Don't waste our time with something that fails to provide Australia a national footprint. Don't waste our time with something that guarantees a lopsided competition. Don't waste our time with something that requires round-the-globe travel (we can't afford it nor can they). Don't waste our time with something that doesn't provide regular, predictable games in sensible time slots and that doesn't allow fans a logical schedule to build home support.



OK, OK. Maybe I need to lose the "don't waste our time with" ultimatums. We've been supported for a long time and should have the grace to openly appreciate it and to bend an ear genuinely willing to listen. I'm just recognising the difficulty here, in the bare-bones of what Australia needs to dig itself out of extinction, and that these are a very different set of desires to the those of a successful nation going from strength to strength.

I think Dru like many - have underestimated how much fan appeal (read broadcast dollars - fans coming to matches) a professional Fiji side would offer. Fiji have shown with their 7's how powerful a brand they are - just imagine how this could translate to professional 15's with the appeal of their running rugby and large PI communities across Asia. Equally I believe commercially we need to keep Japan in our domestic competition as we have close ties with Japan, are time zone friendly and would add much needed commercial muscle and dollars (broadcast and sponsorship dollars). Japan also play an attractive brand of running rugby but just need a competition which allows for more equalisation of teams. It would be suicide to think we could just have a domestic comp with only oz teams.

That is where Twiggy's endeavours to have control over talent in teams with WSR concept is right approach - where that be marquees (and hence Twiggy's push for Oz players to be wallaby eligible for players who play for any team in Asia pacific comp which I believe is right approach) or draft system (latter not feasible if involves teams from other countries).

NZ won't play ball with that and that is fine so we exclude NZ from the competition and play them in champions league style competition. It is imperative that we create our own competition via a RA, Twiggy and WR (World Rugby) partnership/endorsement/support. If NZ want to enter a team in this competition under our rules that is fine but otherwise just keep it to champions league style format for top teams with NZ only.

 

[zer0]

Equally I believe commercially we need to keep Japan in our domestic competition as we have close ties with Japan, are time zone friendly and would add much needed commercial muscle and dollars (broadcast and sponsorship dollars). Japan also play an attractive brand of running rugby but just need a competition which allows for more equalisation of teams. It would be suicide to think we could just have a domestic comp with only oz teams.

.....

NZ won't play ball with that and that is fine so we exclude NZ from the competition and play them in champions league style competition. It is imperative that we create our own competition via a RA, Twiggy and WR (World Rugby) partnership/endorsement/support. If NZ want to enter a team in this competition under our rules that is fine but otherwise just keep it to champions league style format for top teams with NZ only.

And, if Japan are forced to choose between mutually exclusive options, what happens to Australia if they choose to go with NZ?