Where to for Super Rugby?

[dru]

The way forward is to cut the NSWRU and the QRU right out of the picture. They need to be running community level rugby in their respective states - nothing more. They certainly shouldn't be organising professional rugby teams in a season long competition, that's yesterday's thinking.

Fine. I repeat my statement though just replace QRU with Reds and NSWRU with Waratahs. And actually I suspect less traction to insist on the split.

I don’t mind the split, but they already have trouble matching the Brumbies, both teams have build plans in play that would hit a rock wall. I think that is acceptable - for a change in comp structure. Less so for a temporary single season.

I suspect any National Domestic Competition will need to kick off with the five franchises intact. Increase in number would need to come from elsewhere.

An SRU based team in Sydney might work but QPR I think is more integrally meshed in Brisbane and I suspect harder to segregate. A five team comp is no better a product in Australia than it is in New Zealand. But may need to be the way for 2021 until the future is more solid.

I don’t think structural change is likely on a temporary basis, I’d support it completely if the plan is longer.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Fine. I repeat my statement though just replace QRU with Reds and NSWRU with Waratahs. And actually I suspect less traction to insist on the split.

I don’t mind the split, but they already have trouble matching the Brumbies, both teams have build plans in play that would hit a rock wall. I think that is acceptable - for a change in comp structure. Less so for a temporary single season.

I suspect any National Domestic Competition will need to kick off with the five franchises intact. Increase in number would need to come from elsewhere.

An SRU based team in Sydney might work but QPR I think is more integrally meshed in Brisbane and I suspect harder to segregate. A five team comp is no better a product in Australia than it is in New Zealand. But may need to be the way for 2021 until the future is more solid.

I don’t think structural change is likely on a temporary basis, I’d support it completely if the plan is longer.

We could easily jump to 6 by bringing in the Drua.

 

[hoggy]

We could easily jump to 6 by bringing in the Drua.

Start with 6 with the potential to go to 8 or 10 over the next 5-10-15 years if conditions allow, but at least your not locked into a format with NZ that prevents you from evolving.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Start with 6 with the potential to go to 8 or 10 over the next 5-10-15 years if conditions allow, but at least your not locked into a format with NZ that prevents you from evolving.

You'd need more than 6 teams to make the league viable. At the very least a Asia-Pacific Cup competition featuring opposition form both NZ and Japan. . Move the RC to align with the 6Ns to kick off the year. Move into our domestic competition. June/July Tests and then the AP Cup featuring our 6x6x6 split into two pools of 9 for 8 games a piece with a top 8 finals series. Twelve weeks total.

 

[Rebels3]

You'd need more than 6 teams to make the league viable. At the very least a Asia-Pacific Cup competition featuring opposition form both NZ and Japan. . Move the RC to align with the 6Ns to kick off the year. Move into our domestic competition. June/July Tests and then the AP Cup featuring our 6x6x6 split into two pools of 9 for 8 games a piece with a top 8 finals series. Twelve weeks total.

I’m firmly in the camp of the SRAU competition then an Asian Pacific Cup involving all 5 teams. Would also mean any expansion going forward would be under our own control, could easily expand the domestic SRAU without exposing teams to international competition until they are ready.

 

[hoggy]

You'd need more than 6 teams to make the league viable. At the very least a Asia-Pacific Cup competition featuring opposition form both NZ and Japan. . Move the RC to align with the 6Ns to kick off the year. Move into our domestic competition. June/July Tests and then the AP Cup featuring our 6x6x6 split into two pools of 9 for 8 games a piece with a top 8 finals series. Twelve weeks total.

That's all well and good and it still gives you a domestic competition. But you then need Japan to produce a 6 team competition in that time frame (has anyone asked them), and then get NZ to add another team. The issue is you are asking other entities all who have there own interests (NZ want Aus to reduce to 2/3 teams and join them), you have a lot of dots with people who have shown themselves not good at putting them together.

 

[Dan54]

Start with 6 with the potential to go to 8 or 10 over the next 5-10-15 years if conditions allow, but at least your not locked into a format with NZ that prevents you from evolving.

When did NZ ever stop Aus from evolving didn't Aus add 2 teams to super as they saw fit?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

That's all well and good and it still gives you a domestic competition. But you then need Japan to produce a 6 team competition in that time frame (has anyone asked them), and then get NZ to add another team. The issue is you are asking other entities all who have there own interests (NZ want Aus to reduce to 2/3 teams and join them), you have a lot of dots with people who have shown themselves not good at putting them together.

On Japan. You don't. They've already expressed interest in some kind of Cup concept to run after their professional league finishes. Which this would. All they would do is qualify the top 6 from their league. As for NZ. Apparently there are two groups looking to bring a PI squad to their competition. If we don't combine to form a TT league they will have to seriously look for alternatives. That could be a 6th NZ franchise. Could be the PI squad. Or they could just go with 5 and we let Japan have a 7th squad. Seeing as their likely to be the biggest economy in Rugby.

 

[Adam84]

When did NZ ever stop Aus from evolving didn't Aus add 2 teams to super as they saw fit?

Well a clear example is New Zealand wanting Australia to regress by telling them they have to cut teams if they want to play in nzru’s comp in 2021.

at least sanzaar was a partnership where Australia could argue for extra teams, this new competition proposal isn’t. NZRU want to dictate the terms on their own with no RA input.

 

[hoggy]

On Japan. You don't. They've already expressed interest in some kind of Cup concept to run after their professional league finishes. Which this would. All they would do is qualify the top 6 from their league. As for NZ. Apparently there are two groups looking to bring a PI squad to their competition. If we don't combine to form a TT league they will have to seriously look for alternatives. That could be a 6th NZ franchise. Could be the PI squad. Or they could just go with 5 and we let Japan have a 7th squad. Seeing as their likely to be the biggest economy in Rugby.

If that is the case and Japan has some genuine interest, then I would argue even more strongly that a 6 team domestic competition for next year is your best option moving forward with a possible cross championship start in 2022.

This would give you 2021 for all the 3 countries to define there best domestic set-up, both NZ & Aus need to add 1 more team and my understanding Japan was starting a 3 division league in 2022, so that has to be factored.

Trying to start that set-up from next year is a big ask.

 

[mst]

Yep and only way you will get a decent percentage of home market is if you get good enough players in comp, ask Soccer why more Australians seem to watch EPL/European soccer than A league. I work in construction, and in the 15 or so years I been in it, I have heard the average Joe talk AFL, league, super/test rugby, EPL soccer (heard a couple arguing Chelsea/Arsenal just this morning), but have never heard A league being discussed ( NRC for that matter). I not saying it never has been, but obviously not as much as other sports or we would of heard it sometime. like I said earlier my sidekick is a real soccer man, his teenage boys are same watching it all the time, but not A league because the players are not top level!

Not sold on this one as I think the A league is a poor example from personal experience and as with the many soccer nuts Iknow, they watch Aussie soccer as a last option as it's just awful and always been a pretty low standard affair. Most still perceive many of the clubs having specific community or cultural links and tied to their previous iterations. It been the same way for the last 20yrs.

 

[Derpus]

Not sold on this one as I think the A league is a poor example from personal experience and as with the many soccer nuts Iknow, they watch Aussie soccer as a last option as it's just awful and always been a pretty low standard affair. Most still perceive many of the clubs having specific community or cultural links and tied to their previous iterations. It been the same way for the last 20yrs.

Yeah - removing the cultural ties instantly removed all quality player production from the A-league. A bunch of our best players were of Croatian descent, as an example.

They also kicked out the most vocal fans because they thought it was preventing 'family friendly' atmosphere from developing and keeping a large cohort of fans away, when in actuality they were kicking out their only fans.

The A-league sides don't even have reserve grade or youth sides to develop players. A model used everywhere else in the world for soccer.

The FFA would give RA a run for the 'worst sports administrators' title. I don't think its a good example.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Not sold on this one as I think the A league is a poor example from personal experience and as with the many soccer nuts Iknow, they watch Aussie soccer as a last option as it's just awful and always been a pretty low standard affair. Most still perceive many of the clubs having specific community or cultural links and tied to their previous iterations. It been the same way for the last 20yrs.

Completely different environment in terms of worldwide leagues. Reputation and accessibility. If you asked Soccer fans to name the best leagues in the world you'd get a handful of the same leagues every time. The EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga etc. While if you ask Rugby fans the same question it would be highly dependent on where they are. The English will say the Premiership. The Irish the Pro14 (backed up by the European results), the French the Top 14 and up until several years ago anyone in a SANZAAR nation would have told you Super Rugby. There's no one definitive answer. Which actually helps. The A-League last I heard was something like the 58th best league in the world.

And then there's the issue of accessibility. I know you have been able to watch the EPL on FTA until quite recently for a very long time via SBS. It's how I watched Manchester United games as a kid. And I know there were La Liga games and I think one or two Bundesliga games a week as well. Fans could easily access these leagues. This exposure tends to lead to direct comparisons. Which in terms of the A-League never come out in their favour. SANZAAR Rugby also supplies a lot of talent to our competing leagues while that's not the case in Soccer. Which again helps create perception. Rugby in Australia can still produce world class talent to go off to the other major competitions internationally while Soccer only ever gets a smattering at best. Most of which leave our shores relatively young in order to pursue these opportunities. From day one, in the minds of many Soccer fans the guys here. Playing in the A-League are considered those not good enough to get a contract overseas.

 

[dru]

Not sold on this one as I think the A league is a poor example from personal experience and as with the many soccer nuts Iknow, they watch Aussie soccer as a last option as it's just awful and always been a pretty low standard affair. Most still perceive many of the clubs having specific community or cultural links and tied to their previous iterations. It been the same way for the last 20yrs.

After 10 years in the UK I returned as a major round ball fan(Royals if you need to know). Immediately took membership with the Roar. By the end of the season I had discovered the revolution in rugby with professionalism and I’ve never looked back. Still fond of the Royals but it’s been an age since I watched a game.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yeah - removing the cultural ties instantly removed all quality player production from the A-league. A bunch of our best players were of Croatian descent, as an example.

They also kicked out the most vocal fans because they thought it was preventing 'family friendly' atmosphere from developing and keeping a large cohort of fans away, when in actuality they were kicking out their only fans.

The A-league sides don't even have reserve grade or youth sides to develop players. A model used everywhere else in the world for soccer.

The FFA would give RA a run for the 'worst sports administrators' title. I don't think its a good example.

There was a good reason why they opted to not include cultural clubs. There were legitimate issues that were of concern. But you are right. They did alienate their most hardcore domestic scene fans. For sure. But as above that's just one of many issues.

 

[Dan54]

Well a clear example is New Zealand wanting Australia to regress by telling them they have to cut teams if they want to play in nzru’s comp in 2021.

at least sanzaar was a partnership where Australia could argue for extra teams, this new competition proposal isn’t. NZRU want to dictate the terms on their own with no RA input.

How do you know this? What I have heard said from NZR is they would prefer a team of 8-10 teams with a PI team. Have said they want it to be best comp in world, and all teams should be able to be sustainable both in adding to comp by being competitive and they have to be financial. That is what I actually heard Mark Robinson say, I have never heard him say that Australia must cut teams. He also said to take then get someone to run it. I have never heard him say it a NZR owned or run comp, but someone had to get it up and running. I have not actually seen or heard anyone from RA actually say anything except Hamish McLennan saying on TV he doubted whether Australia could field 5 competitive teams without buying in talent. Everything else have been paper reports which I take with a rock size grain of salt. As I say, I not saying NZR are by any means not wanting less teams or anything, but I tend to believe what I hear come out of their mouths on TV or something, not what some reporter says has been said. All I saying please tell me where you have heard a NZR official say Australia MUST cut teams. And don't anyone quote me Aritipu report or anything, that was a report for a preferred comp and I can't see in that where it says Australia MUST cut teams. I would also add where have you heard that RA will have no input?

 

[mst]

For clarity, my comments below assume that we get an equitable competition structure with NZ.
.

Is that if we ask NZ nicely if we can join in?

From my post #17600:

IMHO Aussie rugby is becoming analogous to the quintessential "dole bludger" as its colloquially referred to. It can't earn enough to support itself, always has a reason why it can't and continues to be both actively seek and be dependant on the charity of others.

 

[Adam84]

How do you know this? What I have heard said from NZR is they would prefer a team of 8-10 teams with a PI team. Have said they want it to be best comp in world, and all teams should be able to be sustainable both in adding to comp by being competitive and they have to be financial. That is what I actually heard Mark Robinson say, I have never heard him say that Australia must cut teams. He also said to take then get someone to run it. I have never heard him say it a NZR owned or run comp, but someone had to get it up and running. I have not actually seen or heard anyone from RA actually say anything except Hamish McLennan saying on TV he doubted whether Australia could field 5 competitive teams without buying in talent. Everything else have been paper reports which I take with a rock size grain of salt. As I say, I not saying NZR are by any means not wanting less teams or anything, but I tend to believe what I hear come out of their mouths on TV or something, not what some reporter says has been said. All I saying please tell me where you have heard a NZR official say Australia MUST cut teams. And don't anyone quote me Aritipu report or anything, that was a report for a preferred comp and I can't see in that where it says Australia MUST cut teams. I would also add where have you heard that RA will have no input?

They've said it with the options they have released.... NZRU have said they want an 8-10 team comp featuring a PI team, this leaves only 2-4 spots for Australian teams.

NZRU have designed this competition in isolation and attempted to dictate the terms of joining to Australia, this is not a partnership. RA are now working their own competition designs because of the shit NZRU have offered to them.

 

[Dan54]

They've said it with the options they have released.. NZRU have said they want an 8-10 team comp featuring a PI team, this leaves only 2-4 spots for Australian teams.

NZRU have designed this competition in isolation and attempted to dictate the terms of joining to Australia, this is not a partnership. RA are now working their own competition designs because of the shit NZRU have offered to them.

Well fair enough I haven't actually seen a copy of the options, I have only heard Mark Robinson say their preferred option. So I bow to your knowledge on it, I haven't actually seen the EOIs or anything, just heard what someone has said in papers. I take it there was no meeting then this week that Mark Robinson claimed where they were going to discuss the comp.

 

[Adam84]

Well fair enough I haven't actually seen a copy of the options, I have only heard Mark Robinson say their preferred option. So I bow to your knowledge on it, I haven't actually seen the EOIs or anything, just heard what someone has said in papers. I take it there was no meeting then this week that Mark Robinson claimed where they were going to discuss the comp.

NZRU: "We want a 8-10 team comp featuring a PI team"
RA: "We don't want to cut one of our teams again"
NZRU: "On no, we aren't telling you to cut a team, we are simply planning for a 8-10 comp featuring a PI team and 5 kiwi teams"
RA: "yeah, but thats telling us to cut a team"
NZRU: "No, no, no, we aren't telling you to cut a team, we're just leaving it up to you as to how your teams fit within the competition we have designed"
RA: "yeah, but theres only 2 or 4 spots for us and we have 5 teams"
NZRU: "Oh wow, thats quite the predicament"
RA: "....."


NZRU: "Also, just FYI, that league-union hybrid match you guys were toying with, we are now going to do that, in Australia, at one of your home grounds, against the Australian RL team"