COVID-19 Stuff Here

[The_Brown_Hornet]

We had an anti-vax protest in Perth yesterday. The usual ragtag bunch of uninformed nutters.

 

[Derpus]

We had an anti-vax protest in Perth yesterday. The usual ragtag bunch of uninformed nutters.

It's stupid but the frustration is not in the least surprising. I dont think compliance is going to improve as time drags on either.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It's stupid but the frustration is not in the least surprising. I can't compliance is going to improve as time drags on either.

Yep. The key difference here is that there are no restrictions in place, so these folks are free to protest as they see fit. I completely disagree with them, but there you are.

Our premier is saying that we'll need >80% vaccination rate in WA before lockdowns are a thing of the past. I can't see that happening, honestly. Which is what you're saying I guess.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

80%, with a growing lunatic fringe, and gronks like Murdoch giving them airtime.

 

[stoff]

Gladys's probelm is that it got out of hand via Great Ocean Foods. Essential workers to their families, and then multiplied. We're now at the point where we can't lock Fairfield and Canterbury-Bankstown down any harder, and the virus keeps spreading through essential workers.

Actually, isn't that what happened in Melbourne with the abbotoirs last year?

It is, but also got into the aged care which was the biggest issue. Crossover of family members in aged care and meatworks, etc. Also a slow lockdown of suburbs, then the city, but the horse had bolted. Lucky we only had to deal with V1 covid.

Up until this Sydney outbreak I was still calling our CHO "shit
the bed Brett" for his propensity to go hard, not trust the contact tracing, etc.

Can't believe he is now Gold Standard Brett.

 

[Derpus]

Up until this Sydney outbreak I was still calling our CHO "shit
the bed Brett" for his propensity to go hard, not trust the contact tracing, etc.

Can't believe he is now Gold Standard Brett.

Meh. Until he makes a mistake and hes the next fool.

I don't really get the Gladys hate. The track and trace had been exemplary and worked well. There was no reason to deviate from what had been working. I suppose you could argue they should have been harder because it was the Delta variant but that's a tight call.

It's all just stalling tactics anyway. Or were meant to be. Federal government didnt have to manage the borders, quarantine, lockdowns, health care systems. All they had to do was secure a varied supply of vaccines and they fucked that up.

Abolish federation i say.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Meh. Until he makes a mistake and hes the next fool.

It's all just stalling tactics anyway. Or were meant to be. Federal government didnt have to manage the borders, quarantine, lockdowns, health care systems. All they had to do was secure a varied supply of vaccines and they fucked that up.

Abolish federation i say.

Going back to much earlier in this thread, the feds have now had 18 months to set up a fit-for-purpose quarantine system while hotel quarantine helped as a stop-gap measure. Instead they argued that it would be a white elephant. What has been the cost of lockdowns since, say, March 2021?

Fairly sure you have a better grasp on constitutional law than I do el Derpo, aren't the bold, underlined responsibilities Commonwealth responsibilities? I fear that stoff has given the appellation 'shit the bed' to the wrong public figure, when it could apply to one who allegedly already has form.

 

[stoff]

I fear that stoff has given the appellation 'shit the bed' to the wrong public figure, when it could apply to one who allegedly already has form.

I think a pre-condition of shitting the bed is being in it in the first place.

The irony around the white elephant line of thinking over the past 18 months is that they finally have commissioned the first new quarantine facility which will be complete at about the same time as we approach the closest to the old normal we are going to get to. Still better to have it for next time I guess.

 

[Derpus]

Fairly sure you have a better grasp on constitutional law than I do el Derpo

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Meh. Until he makes a mistake and hes the next fool.

I don't really get the Gladys hate. The track and trace had been exemplary and worked well. There was no reason to deviate from what had been working. I suppose you could argue they should have been harder because it was the Delta variant but that's a tight call.

It's all just stalling tactics anyway. Or were meant to be. Federal government didnt have to manage the borders, quarantine, lockdowns, health care systems. All they had to do was secure a varied supply of vaccines and they fucked that up.

Abolish federation i say.

Interesting that you bring this up. I know this is a side note, but it occurred to me with this latest set of lock downs and distribution of vaccines that the pandemic has revealed that when push comes to shove, we're really not all in this together. Ultimately it's everyone for themselves it seems and we can either try to correct that at the federal/state level or accept that there will always be a natural tension between the states. Perhaps we should think hard about the responsibility and authority when it comes to things like public health, quarantine etc.

My own view is that the authority of the Commonwealth should be limited to our national borders and matters of national interest and therefore quarantine should be their responsibility. This would also mean that they could say to the states that they don't get to decide who can travel into and out of their borders.

In terms of health services delivery, I think the feds should stay out of it, other than providing the funding to the states and they run their own affairs.

There are a bunch of aspects that don't involve health that I won't go into here, because that would completely derail this thread. The bottom line for me is that we seem to have a serious amount of wasteful duplication between the States and Commonwealth and I'm hoping that in the aftermath of this whole affair that an adult conversation is had about that.

Yeah right. Doing that would mean that people could no longer duck their responsibility or point the finger. It'll never happen, but it should.

 

[Derpus]

There are a bunch of aspects that don't involve health that I won't go into here, because that would completely derail this thread. The bottom line for me is that we seem to have a serious amount of wasteful duplication between the States and Commonwealth and I'm hoping that in the aftermath of this whole affair that an adult conversation is had about that.

Yeah right. Doing that would mean that people could no longer duck their responsibility or point the finger. It'll never happen, but it should.

Duplication doesn't seem like an issue. The Feds are a redistribution center. They don't manage much in day to day terms. They go absent a lot, but they aren't doing things already done by the states.

Borders already are the Feds responsibility. One of the main benefits in having a federation is pooling resources to better manage the country. So, for example, building an effective quarantine center might not be manageable under Tasmania's budget - but combined we can certainly afford it.

Having said that it's all pretty 'loose'. As i understand it the legality of states locking people out from other states is fairly questionable. Not sure it's been tested in the HC. A lot of the public health orders and other measures taken don't hold up in front of a court. I've heard anecdotally that the majority of PINs issued under health orders in NSW get overturned when challenged.

People are just kind of doing whatever and if it doesn't stick then it doesn't matter because they are all interim measures. Pretty easy for the Feds to abrogate responsibility in that kind of environment.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Duplication doesn't seem like an issue. The Feds are a redistribution center. They don't manage much in day to day terms. They go absent a lot, but they aren't doing things already done by the states.

Borders already are the Feds responsibility. One of the main benefits in having a federation is pooling resources to better manage the country. So, for example, building an effective quarantine center might not be manageable under Tasmania's budget - but combined we can certainly afford it.

Having said that it's all pretty 'loose'. As i understand it the legality of states locking people out from other states is fairly questionable. Not sure it's been tested in the HC. A lot of the public health orders and other measures taken don't hold up in front of a court. I've heard anecdotally that the majority of PINs issued under health orders in NSW get overturned when challenged.

People are just kind of doing whatever and if it doesn't stick then it doesn't matter because they are all interim measures. Pretty easy for the Feds to abrogate responsibility in that kind of environment.

If that's the case, then why do we have so many people in the Federal bureaucracy? Surely if we're devolving health (and other things) to the states then the size of the Commonwealth should be considerably smaller and apart from strategic guidance at the national level, they just hand the funding to the states to do their own thing? The opposite should be the case with quarantine, if we're saying it's a Commonwealth responsibility (fair enough), then why would the States contribute to it at all?

To me, this situation has highlighted the inefficiencies and lack of clarity in our Federation.

 

[Derpus]

 

[Dctarget]

Ah we've managed to siderail this to my favourite topic. Realistically we need to abolish the states. Australia doesn't have the population nor the talent to field three levels of competent government. States made sense when it took 6 weeks to travel between them by horse in 1896 but now with the internet and air travel we're back to being a homogenous blob of bogans and we should embrace it.

We're being run by a federation of small countries with populations of 5 million each, it's stupid. Look at France and UK. Much bigger and they don't need states. Such a waste of resources.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I won't derail the thread any further, but yes there is a debate to be had about that.

 

[Derpus]

Ah we've managed to siderail this to my favourite topic. Realistically we need to abolish the states. Australia doesn't have the population nor the talent to field three levels of competent government. States made sense when it took 6 weeks to travel between them by horse in 1896 but now with the internet and air travel we're back to being a homogenous blob of bogans and we should embrace it.

We're being run by a federation of small countries with populations of 5 million each, it's stupid. Look at France and UK. Much bigger and they don't need states. Such a waste of resources.

Having lived in England it's far from the pinnacle of good governance. Dunno about France.

 

[Rob42]

Ah we've managed to siderail this to my favourite topic. Realistically we need to abolish the states. Australia doesn't have the population nor the talent to field three levels of competent government. States made sense when it took 6 weeks to travel between them by horse in 1896 but now with the internet and air travel we're back to being a homogenous blob of bogans and we should embrace it.

We're being run by a federation of small countries with populations of 5 million each, it's stupid. Look at France and UK. Much bigger and they don't need states. Such a waste of resources.

Yes, but COVID has been the biggest boost to the popularity of state governments in years - they're the ones seen to be addressing the pandemic, with the federal government seemingly sitting on the sidelines.

 

[Tex]

Abbott wanted to have a crack at reforming the federation and got nowhere. Realistically it's too big and complex a project with too many vested interested for it to succeed, particularly if 'abolish the states' is one of the options on the table.

I was talking to colleagues in Sydney last week and reflected that they should get ready for the rage caused by the rabble protesting lock down measures. I'm not convinced they're all out of work and doing it tough. In Melbourne the people I came across who'd go to those events or express solidarity with protestors were spoilt individuals. It's infuriating, particularly when there's a high chance of those events being superspreaders.

 

[Pfitzy]

Going back to much earlier in this thread, the feds have now had 18 months to set up a fit-for-purpose quarantine system while hotel quarantine helped as a stop-gap measure. Instead they argued that it would be a white elephant. What has been the cost of lockdowns since, say, March 2021?

Their failure was not having a lobby mate who could overcharge us for this stuff.

Surely Paladin had a template that worked?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The LNP are far from alone when it comes to maaaaaates with a snout in the trough. There are a litany of examples of political connections getting contracts. What I want to know is what the conversation was with the States that had them agree (or were coerced) to use hotels. I reckon I even heard Glad say in a press conference way back when that this was the agreed protocol stretching way back when. It's pretty clear that it doesn't scale in the long term, hence the reason the premiers asked for a reduction in overseas arrivals.