RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

[yourmatesam]

Technically, it's not a penalty though, is it?

For a penalty to be awarded following the conversion, doesn't the offence have to happen AFTER the try is scored (eg Richard Loe/Paul Carozza)? Most of those head highs are as the guy is diving over the line, but before the try is scored. So, even if the ref were going to penalise, advantage should apply and the try would over-rule the penalty. If it was bad enough, a card could still be issued though or a warning given.

The ref may award a penalty try and yellow card if the act of foul play prevents the try being scored.
I'm not sure what the law is with regards to a try that is scored, but in the process of scoring an act of foul play is committed. I would suggest it is at the referee's discretion as to the outcome for this. Surely an admonishment at least.

 

[BPC]

As Cyclopath noted, there have been instances, involving foul play against the player in the act of scoring, where the try is awarded and after the conversion attempt, a penalty is given in line with the spot where the incident occurred. Hence the 'ten-point try'.

I have had a look in the IRB Rules and can't find a reference to this. Arguably, if the referee were to award a penalty it would supersede the try, If the foul play takes place before the grounding. I believe the referee would be entitled to award a yellow card/red card but not the penalty. Where the foul play occurs after grounding (think Carozza's headbutt to poor old Loe's elbow), a referee could award the penalty kick after the conversion as the try occurred before the trigger for the penalty.

Usually I suspect that the high shot occcurs before the grounding so the referee plays advantage and awards the try, and chooses not to admonish the offending player because of the try. But still, as Langthorne noted, desparate cheap shots are a blight on the game and at least the referees could hand out a warning for this type of crap.

 

[Jnor]

As a wild card how about having the restart form the 22 instead of halfway if there's foul play in the act of scoring the try and forget about any extra kick for goal? Obviously any red/yellow would stand.

 

[Roundawhile]

Or perhaps bring the conversion attempt to directly in front of the posts for an act of foul play before the try?

 

[Slim 293]

Slightly different, but...

A couple of years ago Palu was yellow carded for an act of foul play after the Tahs scored a try against the Highlanders...

The try had already been awarded, and the Highlanders received a penalty on the half way line after teh Tahs' conversion...

 

[Scarfman]

Weird. I guess that means if you're 9 points down after 80 minutes you can still try to win the game by scoring a try in a manner that gets yourself horribly injured by the tackler. It's tricky, but would be possible for the truly committed.

 

[Jay]

Slightly different, but...

A couple of years ago Palu was yellow carded for an act of foul play after the Tahs scored a try against the Highlanders...

The try had already been awarded, and the Highlanders received a penalty on the half way line after teh Tahs' conversion...

Yeah, the penalty will be on halfway. Any foul play when the ball is out of play means the penalty is given where the restart would have been.

 

[Bullrush]

My concerns about Wayne Barnes are well-articulated here:

Barnes has lost his nerve
12:55 PM Tuesday Sep 27, 2011

Wayne Barnes' refusal to make bold calls and enforce the laws of the game at times is a killer for everyone, except it seems, the IRB. To be a central figure at one World Cup is bad enough - but for Wayne Barnes to have now hi-jacked two World Cups...that's unforgiveable.

Sadly, though, while we all howl with derision, Barnes is probably moving higher up the referee pecking order. His star is no doubt shining because he's following the IRB's golden rule - to not make any critical decisions in the final stages of big games.

It should be the players and not the referees who determine the outcome of the contest - a mantra the IRB adopted ever since Andre Watson penalised England in the final minute of the 2003 World Cup final for a technical infringement at a scrum.

Barnes is taking that mantra even further by just not making any big calls at all. It's left the Welsh and Scots furious this time round and like anyone could ever forget, didn't really endear him to the All Blacks in 2007.

Everyone focuses on the obvious forward pass he missed in the build-up to France's match-winning try in the 2007 quarter-final, but his real failing was that he allowed 40 minutes of rugby to be played without awarding a penalty.

There were close to 200 breakdowns in that game and yet not one penalty came in the second half. Conspiracies have even arisen about this statistical anomaly - after all it seems normally penalties come every other breakdown - but there is no bigger picture to grasp than Barnes being adamant that detail is irrelevant in big games. Anything goes just as long as the game continues to flow.

It didn't matter that Argentina's Felipe Contepomi was metres offside which forced Scotland's Dan Parks to make a late attempted drop goal off his left foot rather than his preferred right. No wonder Parks remonstrated as the ball flew wide taking with it Scotland's hopes of progressing from Pool B - but his appeal fell on deaf ears; there was no way Barnes was ever going to award the Scots a penalty in front of the sticks with one minute remaining and Contepomi knew it. Just as the French sensed four years ago that they could flop over the tackled ball and lie there all night.

The thing about Barnes is that he's mostly a good referee. When Wales played South Africa on the opening weekend he communicated well and let the two teams contest in the areas they wanted to contest.

He communicated clearly throughout the Scotland versus Argentina game and did particularly well to keep the scrummaging just about under control.

But his refusal to make bold calls and enforce the laws of the game at times is a killer for everyone, except it seems, the IRB.

If Ireland and New Zealand should reach the final and rule out Alain Rolland or Bryce Lawrence from taking charge then God help us - Barnes could be let loose.

And we will have anarchy in the final quarter. Barnes will wave anything through and the showpiece event could be reduced to farce.

No one wants the referees to be the story of this World Cup because they impose themselves too much. But there is a danger one referee could influence everything by not imposing himself at all.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Barnesy's performance was the subject of much comment on the Pool B thread. Seems to be a bit polarising is our Mr Barnes.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/9262-RWC-2011-Pool-B-Scotland-Romania-England-Georgia-Argentina/page9?highlight=barnes

Loved this one from Slim 293 on that thread (#179)

Breaking news:

Team blames referee rather than admit to poor performance.

That is an extraordinary claim about the number of penalties (0) in the second half of the Darkness vs Le Frogge in RWC 2007 QF at Cardiff.

That can't be right can it? Wasn't MacAllister sent to the Bin in the Second Half (this is one of the standard whinges from the NZRT against Barnsey as they will claim it was not worthy of a card, the other being the Forward Pass from Michellak). Surely the MacAllister Sin Bin was a penalty offence, and IIRC it was in the 2nd half.

I am going to have to get one of the Junior Jarses to do the Foxtel IQ download thingie (isn't technology wonderful for the young folk) to download and replay the game, if it is available.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think it is just referring to 0 penalties awarded to the All Blacks in the second half.

France received at least two as McAlister was binned early in the 2nd half and France had a penalty goal later in the half.

 

[Top Bloke]

Just another rubbish article from a rubbish journo working for a rubbish paper. Getting a bit sick of them. Firstly we had Peter Bills dishing up crap about France "B" , then Mark Reason chimed in with more nonsense. As crazy as it may sound I'd rather read Stephen Jones than this current mob

 

[Bullrush]

Just another rubbish article from a rubbish journo working for a rubbish paper. Getting a bit sick of them. Firstly we had Peter Bills dishing up crap about France "B" , then Mark Reason chimed in with more nonsense. As crazy as it may sound I'd rather read Stephen Jones than this current mob

Is there anything in particular that is rubbish or is it just because you say so?

 

[Top Bloke]

Is there anything in particular that is rubbish or is it just because you say so?

Yes a few lines:

"It didn't matter that Argentina's Felipe Contepomi was metres offside" - at most he was 1 metre of-side

"And we will have anarchy in the final quarter. Barnes will wave anything through and the showpiece event could be reduced to farce."
Anarchy ? , Wave ANYTHING through?

"his refusal to make bold calls and enforce the laws of the game at times is a killer for everyone"
This is patent rubbish

 

[Bullrush]

Yes a few lines:

"It didn't matter that Argentina's Felipe Contepomi was metres offside" - at most he was 1 metre of-side

"And we will have anarchy in the final quarter. Barnes will wave anything through and the showpiece event could be reduced to farce."
Anarchy ? , Wave ANYTHING through?

"his refusal to make bold calls and enforce the laws of the game at times is a killer for everyone"
This is patent rubbish

1. I don't know if Contepomi was more that 1 metre off-side but he pretty clearly off-side. Contepomi himself has even said he was off-side. It wasn't a border-line call, to most watching the game it was obvious.

2. Yeah. A bit hyperbolic but he's trying to make a point.

3. Again - is that rubbish just because you've said so? Patently.

 

[barbarian]

1. But video evidence clearly shows it WAS a borderline call. It doesn't matter what it looked like at the game or what Contepomi said.

3. It's a bit stupid to suggest he doesn't make big calls. What about the yellow card on McAlister (?) in 2007? What about giving the penalty to Wales in kickable range in the dying minutes of their RWC game? Just because he doesn't make the calls you want him to make doesn't mean that he doesn't make big calls.

 

[Bullrush]

1. But video evidence clearly shows it WAS a borderline call. It doesn't matter what it looked like at the game or what Contepomi said.

3. It's a bit stupid to suggest he doesn't make big calls. What about the yellow card on McAlister (?) in 2007? What about giving the penalty to Wales in kickable range in the dying minutes of their RWC game? Just because he doesn't make the calls you want him to make doesn't mean that he doesn't make big calls.

If you did video evidence of all the off-side calls that are made, I bet most of them would seem border-line. Contepomi admitting he was off-side is a big factor because it says that he himself believed he was breaking a rule.

It's funny that when Contepomi breaks a law and admits to it, in essence saying he willingly committed an offense to give his team an advantage, there isn't a lot really said.

When Ritchie plays on the edge of laws which are very open to interpretation and have so little room for error, he's labelled a cheat.

In regards to the McAllister yellow-card - hardly a big call when he made it. The AB's were in front and were still probably favoured to win. Most of the comments made about his reffing in that game are in reference to the forward pass and the 40 min where no penalties were blown against the French despite a lot of infringements - when Barnes failed to really make a big call.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

1. But video evidence clearly shows it WAS a borderline call. It doesn't matter what it looked like at the game or what Contepomi said.

+1, i went back and watched the replay at the time as well. (because all my Scotish friends on facebook were outraged). He was only just offside. As Baabaa said, it was borderline, and would be a hard call to make.

Scotland simply shouldn't have attempted that drop goal. The chase was always going to shut it down.

 

[Braveheart81]

I reckon Contepomi took a big risk by anticipating the pass rather than starting to move when he saw the halfback touch the ball. A lucky break for him and Argentina and legal enough in Rugby Union.

If it had been an athletics race it would have been one of those cases where it's a false start because your reaction time is too quick even if you don't break the line prior to the gun going off because you've anticipated the start (if that makes any sense).

 

[barbarian]

If you did video evidence of all the off-side calls that are made, I bet most of them would seem border-line. Contepomi admitting he was off-side is a big factor because it says that he himself believed he was breaking a rule.

It's funny that when Contepomi breaks a law and admits to it, in essence saying he willingly committed an offense to give his team an advantage, there isn't a lot really said.

When Ritchie plays on the edge of laws which are very open to interpretation and have so little room for error, he's labelled a cheat.

In regards to the McAllister yellow-card - hardly a big call when he made it. The AB's were in front and were still probably favoured to win. Most of the comments made about his reffing in that game are in reference to the forward pass and the 40 min where no penalties were blown against the French despite a lot of infringements - when Barnes failed to really make a big call.

I don't understand the logic here. This is a strange post frankly. I don't know what you are basing your first assertion on (that all off-sides look line-ball on video). I don't even know how it is relevant. The FACT is that you could make a case for Contepomi being offside, and you could also make a case for him being onside (as Lee Grant has). That is the definition of a line-ball call, and under the circumstances I am happy with the action taken by Barnes.

It makes no difference what Contepomi says. The referee was in a far better positon than him to judge whether the ball was out.

As for the Richie thing... WTF? That is not relevant to this at all and another debate entirely.

So basically you are basing this opinion of Barnes (that he doesn't make the big calls) on one game FOUR YEARS AGO, and one line-ball call in a pool game between Scotland and Argentina. Can you see how this might sound like baseless whinging from a few people that can't quite get over what happened in 2007?

 

[Braveheart81]

I love it how the pass that led to the French try in the 2007 quarter final is now obviously forward by a mile when in reality it was a short, line ball pass that neither the referee nor the touch judge were likely to get a good view of.

It's like in a few years time we'll be talking about that time when Al Baxter ran 40 metres to score his first ever Super Rugby try for the Waratahs, beating half a dozen defenders in the process.