RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

[Hugh Jarse]

Isn't it good to see some of the referees penalising No 9's for illegal feeds at scrums in this RWC?

There haven't been too many of these penalties issued, so it is obvious that it is not a big issue for PO'B to sort out.

Was surprised in the Wobs vs Ire game (i think it was) where following a "correct" and "fair" scrum feed, the ball sat at the centreline of the scrum unhooked for a second or two in a couple of scrums.

Pressure on the opposing hookers from the THP I am told can cause this. Or was this simply because the hookers have forgotten how to hook for the ball because they are so used to crooked feeds from their No9s?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Is it possible for a team mate to get pinged for Dangerous Play on one of his own players?

We all agree that a player in the air must be safely brought to ground. At the 70 minute mark in the Saffer vs Fiji game, Schalk Burger was lifted to receive a kick off. The lift went horribly wrong, and Schalk is very lucky that he managed to wriggle around in the air and land on his back.

For a brief moment it looked like he was about to be speared into the ground head first.

Could the Referee have pinged the Saffer Lifter?

 

[yourmatesam]

What was the interpretation of the French try in the 75th minute of the AB's game? Rolland and his AR's must be on drugs, surely there is no way that that could have been awarded as a try.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

If the ref blows time off, you can't take a quick tap. But for as long as time is on, you can.

In this case, it appears that Rolland never blew time off. And when his AR informed him of this, he ended up awarding the try.

*I'm not 100% sure if he called time off or not, I only watched the fox sports match centre replay which only shows a bit of it. However, the clock seemed to be running the whole time.

 

[yourmatesam]

It's a strange one isn't it. Lee Grant talked about it in the NZ v France thread. I think the clock was still running, but I didn't notice him make a mark. Either way, it comes down to poor management from Rolland, if time was on, he shouldn't have been talking to the AB's they way he was, and if time was off, he should have called them back to make the mark.

Everyone makes mistakes, and I guess Rolland will have to wear this one, let's just hope the other refs were watching and are aware of this for the rest of the tournament. It seems like such a basic error though!!!

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Yea, you should always call time off when you are going to chat to the players. However, at the same time. Players need to be alert themselves. If the ref hasn't called time off, set your defensive line while the ref is chatting to the captain.

 

[yourmatesam]

Yea, you should always call time off when you are going to chat to the players. However, at the same time. Players need to be alert themselves. If the ref hasn't called time off, set your defensive line while the ref is chatting to the captain.

I agree. You would think though that in a World Cup game, the ref would be aware of what was going on, and he clearly wasn't.

 

[BRIX]

Yes, didn't appear he blew time off. The clock on TV is synced with his assistants watch I believe +/- a few seconds. As you said, the clock was running the whole time as it was not blown up for time. I don't care to argue whether it was in the moral code to take the quick tap or not but I would probably be upset if it were done to my team, or more importantly had any bearing to the match at full time.

On another note, Romania's negative play yesterday gifting England and easy victory was embarrassing - kicking for points 3 times while down 30+ points is not on Oaks. What disappoints me is that their campaign started off so promising with that narrow loss to Scotland in the dying minutes. Catalin "I'm scared to fly" Fercu's attitude seemed to rub off on their performance.

Show up to play or don't show up at all, folks.

 

[Jay]

If the ref blows time off, you can't take a quick tap. But for as long as time is on, you can.

In this case, it appears that Rolland never blew time off. And when his AR informed him of this, he ended up awarding the try.

*I'm not 100% sure if he called time off or not, I only watched the fox sports match centre replay which only shows a bit of it. However, the clock seemed to be running the whole time.

He stuck his arm out at one point, but didn't actually appear to signal time off. And the clock kept running, as you say.

It was poor management by him - I mean, at the very least he took 2 defenders out of play by not letting them get back onside (obviously there's only a very small chance they could have done anything, but still).

 

[Jay]

Is it possible for a team mate to get pinged for Dangerous Play on one of his own players?

We all agree that a player in the air must be safely brought to ground. At the 70 minute mark in the Saffer vs Fiji game, Schalk Burger was lifted to receive a kick off. The lift went horribly wrong, and Schalk is very lucky that he managed to wriggle around in the air and land on his back.

For a brief moment it looked like he was about to be speared into the ground head first.

Could the Referee have pinged the Saffer Lifter?

Didn't one of the Wallaby forwards get injured in exactly this manner against Ireland in the 2003 World Cup?

Edit - it was Giffen vs Argentina, actually.

 

[Lee Grant]

I don't recall that there's any law on the matter - but if you lift a player in the lineout you have to lower him to the ground, otherwise it's a free kick.

This law is not invoked much, yet I see many jumpers who are dropped, literally.

 

[Scotty]

Rolland had a very good game apart from that incident.

 

[pilbarapythons]

I wish refs were consistant in the time spoken between the crouch, pause, touch and engage calling.
What I mean by this, is that sometimes many refs have for example say a 2 or 3 second delay between the first three calls but then wait a rediculous time with the last engage comand which would undoubtedly make the push harder to predict and thus at many times made to early.

 

[Blob]

I wish refs were consistant in the time spoken between the crouch, pause, touch and engage calling.
What I mean by this, is that sometimes many refs have for example say a 2 or 3 second delay between the first three calls but then wait a rediculous time with the last engage comand which would undoubtedly make the push harder to predict and thus at many times made to early.

The point of varying the timing on those calls is to stop teams from 'working out' the cadence and playing to that rather than the ref's call.

 

[Langthorne]

I am sick of seeing high tackles go unnoticed. This has sometimes happened in 'general' play (eg see NZ-France game Nonu on Rougerie), and often when a player is in the act of scoring a try. Where in the Laws does it say 'it is OK to take someone's head off if he is in the act of scoring a try?' - it seems to happen in most matches these days. Did I mention it shits me to tears?

On other matters: is home advantage an IRB refereeing directive for this world cup?

 

[elementfreak]

I wish refs were consistant in the time spoken between the crouch, pause, touch and engage calling.
What I mean by this, is that sometimes many refs have for example say a 2 or 3 second delay between the first three calls but then wait a rediculous time with the last engage comand which would undoubtedly make the push harder to predict and thus at many times made to early.

Poite is the IRB benchmark in this, they have said his CTPE is the ideal cadence however at each of the calls you need to look for stuff. For example:
Crouch
- Are the props all level?
- Hips and shoulders straight?
- Head on head?
- Number 8s are in?
- Everyone still and stable
- Gap not too big?

Touch
- 4 touches?
- No one has moved their position
- Everyone is still again

Pause
- Double crotch bind by the locks?
- Backlines onside?
- Everyone still and stable

Engage
- Early engage/push?
- Binds up?
- Tighthead/Loosehead angling in?
- Wheeled?
- Ball in
- 9 and loose forwards onside?

All of this needs to be checked in roughly 5-7 seconds. That's why the vary.

My "trigger" to move onto the next call is the 6 front rower's heads are still and then I will move onto the next one, if there is movement I will keep waiting for them to get steady otherwise I will stand them up and reset.

 

[BPC]

Where in the Laws does it say 'it is OK to take someone's head off if he is in the act of scoring a try?' - it seems to happen in most matches these days. Did I mention it shits me to tears?

I have noticed that too. It's not on but the refs seem to think that because you scored a try it isn't worth a penalty. Bring back the 10 point try!

 

[yourmatesam]

Poite is the IRB benchmark in this, they have said his CTPE is the ideal cadence however at each of the calls you need to look for stuff.

All of this needs to be checked in roughly 5-7 seconds. That's why the vary.

My "trigger" to move onto the next call is the 6 front rower's heads are still and then I will move onto the next one, if there is movement I will keep waiting for them to get steady otherwise I will stand them up and reset.

Great summary elementfreak, good work mate. There is a LOT of stuff for ref's to keep an eye on (not only at scrum time) isn't there!!

 

[Jay]

I have noticed that too. It's not on but the refs seem to think that because you scored a try it isn't worth a penalty.

Technically, it's not a penalty though, is it?

For a penalty to be awarded following the conversion, doesn't the offence have to happen AFTER the try is scored (eg Richard Loe/Paul Carozza)? Most of those head highs are as the guy is diving over the line, but before the try is scored. So, even if the ref were going to penalise, advantage should apply and the try would over-rule the penalty. If it was bad enough, a card could still be issued though or a warning given.

 

[cyclopath]

Technically, it's not a penalty though, is it?

For a penalty to be awarded following the conversion, doesn't the offence have to happen AFTER the try is scored (eg Richard Loe/Paul Carozza)? Most of those head highs are as the guy is diving over the line, but before the try is scored. So, even if the ref were going to penalise, advantage should apply and the try would over-rule the penalty. If it was bad enough, a card could still be issued though or a warning given.

No, I don't believe so (but I am NOT an authority on such things). If an act foul play occurs in the act of scoring, I think the referee has the option to further sanction the team. I have seen it once, but that was a while ago.
As an aside, it was interesting with that try from the quick tap, SBW's attempted tackle was, at the very least clumsy (in that the French player was falling as he went to tackle, hence hitting the head) but was not overly endowed with the use of arms in the conventional way. Had the French guy been a few inches higher, he would have been belted into oblivion. I don't think it was malice, but SBW does seem to struggle with letting the old league habits die as far as tackles go. I was surprised at the time that neither the ref nor the AR made any mention.