Waratahs 2012

[Braveheart81]

A good program would be one that produced results so the theory doesn't apply to the tahs.

Consistency wise though, the Tahs have been one of the best Australian teams for quite a while now. The result is that they have had a fairly stable and experienced squad which has meant that younger talent struggle to get a run and go to other franchises.

The Reds for instance managed to build an excellent squad with a lot of young talent after spending a few years really struggling. Without those dismal seasons, the Tahs never really get the big player cleanout giving young guys a chance to become regular Super Rugby players.

 

[No4918]

I don't know about the 200kg but 2012 is the second year of a two year contract. That means we (Tahs) have to buy him back at the end of next year. Whatever it cost would be worth it. He is the best tight head scrummaging prop in Australia. The rest is just icing on the cake. If we make allowances for Quade's tackling skills why are we not prepared to make the same allowances for Palmer? If he went to QLD he would transform their scrum and Link would fix the rest. [I am not sure why I said that, but I bet Link is already building a war chest to make him an offer.]

Not sure Link would be interested. With 3 front rowers in there early 20's there is a lot of room for improvement. It would push Slipper to LH and Daley out of the side as he can't play both sides. Not enough upside to lose the workrate of the current front row. Hanson should come on this year and could push Fainga'a to the bench as well which will improve the scrum.

 

[fatprop]

A good program would be one that produced results so the theory doesn't apply to the tahs.

Bullocks

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Bullocks

Does that mean they should be judged by the number of male bovines produced?

 

[fatprop]

Does that mean they should be judged by the number of male bovines produced?

The Tahs run a successful program, they have been consistently the best Aus Super side since about 2005 when they took the mantle from the Brumbies, the Reds were fantastic last season by winning the thing, but the Tahs have been in the semis 5 out of the last 7 years.

That is not a bad effort, over the same time period, the Reds are the only other Aus side to make the semis

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Try the last 30 seasons

 

[Richo]

Try the last 30 seasons

Very constructive, champ.

 

[SuperGrover]

Consistency wise though, the Tahs have been one of the best Australian teams for quite a while now. The result is that they have had a fairly stable and experienced squad which has meant that younger talent struggle to get a run and go to other franchises.

The Reds for instance managed to build an excellent squad with a lot of young talent after spending a few years really struggling. Without those dismal seasons, the Tahs never really get the big player cleanout giving young guys a chance to become regular Super Rugby players.

It seems as though both sides of this argument are trying to use results when it suits them. For instance, what do you mean when you say 'consistency wise', for I read it to mean we have strung enough wins together to be better than average over a number of seasons. If this is what was intended (i apologise if it was not) then it really is different sides of the same coin; results on the scoreboard.

I would much rather a Tahs team that is consistently progressing in its mode of play, and trust that results will follow. For too long (this season excepted where I felt we were a chance against the blues) it has seemed as if we are happy with consistently making the finals without ever looking like we had the skills, execution or game plan to really shake things up once we got there. Were the negative thinking that results in this to ever change, that would be a result.

 

[Braveheart81]

It seems as though both sides of this argument are trying to use results when it suits them. For instance, what do you mean when you say 'consistency wise', for I read it to mean we have strung enough wins together to be better than average over a number of seasons. If this is what was intended (i apologise if it was not) then it really is different sides of the same coin results on the scoreboard.

That is what I meant although I don't really get what you mean by your last sentence in that paragraph.

It is hard to go back to the drawing board and draft in lots of young prospects when your team is performing reasonably well. There is less reason to move players along and subsequently young players go to the other franchises where they will get straight into the 22 rather than biding their time in the extended squad.

 

[Ruggo]

I don't this best Aussie side for the last 5 years crap. The more productive veiw is we consistantly come close but come up short so we need to address the problem. I don't understand how consistantly falling short can be worn as a badge of honour.

 

[waratahjesus]

I don't this best Aussie side for the last 5 years crap. The more productive veiw is we consistantly come close but come up short so we need to address the problem. I don't understand how consistantly falling short can be worn as a badge of honour.

i dont think its worn as a badge of honour, not winning in a couple of years there was underachieving as far as im concerned. But consistantly giving yourself the opportunity to achieve is a form of success and the Tahs have been able to do that. they have been the best Aus team of recent years, if the reds had lost in the final would you have not called there season a success compared with that of other aussie teams?

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think anyone is trying to wear it as a badge of honour.

It is more in relation to the fact that you don't try and rebuild a team with young players after getting knocked out in the semi finals or narrowly missing the finals. You only tinker around the edges.

I think this is the biggest reason why NSW has lost a lot of young players because teams like the Western Force have offered instant opportunities for people who can't get a run for the Tahs.

 

[Ruggo]

Bloody hell this had nothing to do with the Reds. I would of called progressing from 5th to 2nd a success for sure. The reality is the Tahs are one team competing against 14 others to be super rugby champions. Being the best Australian team is a mute point. To me calling that success is like lacking the hunger to get over that final hurdle and win the thing.

Why so defencive? It was not intended as a cheap shot at the Tahs. I hope all the Aussie sides show a killer edge this year so we can transfer that attitude into the Wallabies.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think any of us are being defensive.

We're talking about the Catch-22 of when you make a semi final or the top 6 you can't tell half your team to move on and instead end up with young talent moving to other teams so they can get a go rather than waiting in the wings for an eventual opportunity.

 

[rugbyisfun]

The Australian teams lack the ability to win because of the lack of experience of our professional players. For most of them, their pathway to a starting 15 (or 22) spot in a Super Rugby program is via elite schools, U20's, into academies (running around cones and lifting weights) and then out onto the SFS for the Tahs. None of them learn culture, learn how to win or lose, learn how to be part of a team other than in that one, very limited environment (elite squads).

We are so badly in need of a better/another competition below Super Rugby it's rediculous. Never going to happen though. The ARU et all will keep tipping cash into High Performance programs hoping that it will produce a better result. They haven't learned that it can't and won't.

It's time to go back to basics, have a serious go at a bottom up approach. Facilitate the Grassroots better and reap the rewards up the top at Super Rugby level and at RWC 2015.

 

[fatprop]

All the Tahs have needed since Mark Ella is a decent 10, the Reds have Cooper, the Brumbies had Larkham. Beale was the hope but after a great start he found McDonalds and only came back via 15. The Tahs have tried plenty and none have met the needs of a S15 winning standard.

Barnes clealry has the ability, if he can stay on the field, but he ain't no chuck it wide maven and it will be interesting to see how the crowd will cope with his prudent, measured approach.

Kicking goals, playing some field position, taking some field goals when the ball goes static and attacking in the their half will frustrate a few but it is winning rugby.

 

[waratahjesus]

Bloody hell this had nothing to do with the Reds. I would of called progressing from 5th to 2nd a success for sure. The reality is the Tahs are one team competing against 14 others to be super rugby champions. Being the best Australian team is a mute point. To me calling that success is like lacking the hunger to get over that final hurdle and win the thing.

Why so defencive? It was not intended as a cheap shot at the Tahs. I hope all the Aussie sides show a killer edge this year so we can transfer that attitude into the Wallabies.

sorry, wasnt being defensive or making it a reds v tahs battle. was just pointing out, that in a competition, sometimes success can be mesured without a championship. Whilst i and im sure tahs fans and players would have loved a few over the last couple of years for the effort, the fact is, the tahs have given themselves the opportunity to win, they have come up short. In coming up short though, i dont want them to go into a full rebuilding process and drop 5-10 player and start again. i want them to right the wrongs, if we had kept injury free this year i would have been baying for blood if we didnt win, however witht he year we had i would call making the finals and being positive about it a success, not the ultimate success but as a fan i still hold my head up high about how the players adapted and dealt with the issues of the year.

 

[waratahjesus]

All the Tahs have needed since Mark Ella is a decent 10, the Reds have Cooper, the Brumbies had Larkham. Beale was the hope but after a great start he found McDonalds and only came back via 15. The Tahs have tried plenty and none have met the needs of a S15 winning standard.

Barnes clealry has the ability, if he can stay on the field, but he ain't no chuck it wide maven and it will be interesting to see how the crowd will cope with his prudent, measured approach.

Kicking goals, playing some field position, taking some field goals when the ball goes static and attacking in the their half will frustrate a few but it is winning rugby.

i think barnes 3-4 games for uni at fullback will see him return a much better player next year, even in his short cameos he has got his running game in order and i think the short stint will do him really well.

 

[Lee Grant]

As for Ryan and Tilse; I agree that they seemed to hold their own in Super, with the exception of Paddy's performance against the Bulls before coming off with a dodgy shoulder. He did go ok in the Super Semi, though.

That Eastwood pack in the final was great, also. Credit to Longbottom, who has to be one of the big improvers of the year. He'd be a great get if he's on the market.

To be fair to Paddy in that Bulls game he came off the bench to play LHP. He played there at school but hasn't played a lot there since.

Agree on Longbottom this year; a real smokey. He's getting towards his time of greatest strength and let's hope that he gets good enough in 2012 to be thrown into the mix of Oz LHPs. As much as I admire Pecker, he just holds his own in club rugby and we need better 2nd, 3rd and 4th stringers when there are Wob injuries at LHP.

Agree also about Luke Jones and Michael Hooper. In the perfect world for the Tahs these NSW lads who left school in 2009 would be coming into the team in 2012 as another of that year, Greg Peterson, is. Although Hooper missed all rep footie in his last year at school, these fellows plus PAE and Gill were the star schoolboys of 2009. We, in Sydney, regret losing them before their time (as I judge it) but as stands mentions: we can't blame other teams for offering them full contracts in the hope that they will come good, and also stay on.

And we certainly can't blame the lads and their connections for taking the chance.

 

[Jets]

All the Tahs have needed since Mark Ella is a decent 10, the Reds have Cooper, the Brumbies had Larkham. Beale was the hope but after a great start he found McDonalds and only came back via 15. The Tahs have tried plenty and none have met the needs of a S15 winning standard.

Barnes clealry has the ability, if he can stay on the field, but he ain't no chuck it wide maven and it will be interesting to see how the crowd will cope with his prudent, measured approach.

Kicking goals, playing some field position, taking some field goals when the ball goes static and attacking in the their half will frustrate a few but it is winning rugby.

I was pretty young at the time but from memory and footage I have seen Ella wasn't a chuck it wide kind of player. He played flat and followed the ball to secure multiple touches. I think Barnes has all of the skills required to do this. Not wanting to start a Reds v Tahs argument but the Reds used this style of play to great success against the Bulls earlier this year. All it takes is a slight adjustment to the team tactics.

Also it would be impossible to argue that the Tah's haven't been the most successful team from the last 5 years. I would much rather be finishing in the finals every year than starting to plan for the follow season in early May. Yes they missed out on the title but they came bloody close and a bit of luck and things can change.