Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
Good rugby they played but from my side of the fence it was depressing. The TV barely escaped with its life that night.
Waratahs 2012
- Thread starter Lee Grant
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Good rugby they played but from my side of the fence it was depressing. The TV barely escaped with its life that night.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
Yeah, that game from the Tahs showed that if you dominate the rucks by some margin, you dominate the game. The Reds forwards were comprehensively outplayed in that game, helped partly by Link's experiment of Quirk at 7 and Horwill at 6 which he gave up on soon after. The other thing was the Tahs' scrambling defence - when the Reds finally got some ascendency in the last 20 or so, the scrambling defence from the Tahs fantastic, and cut down every break and half break made. It was like a test side playing a provincial side (or like the All Blacks playing Australia in the semi).
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
Perhaps a little comparison across the ditch would show you that your definition of success and rating a team as an under-achiever is just nowhere near reasonable. In NZ, the Clan have been like the Cheetahs - occasionally showing a bit of promise but never making the semis (I know, in the '90's one year the made the final, might even have won it, but that's a long time ago). The Hurricanes made the final once a couple of years ago, but lost in the fog. They occasionally threaten to make the semi's. The Chiefs have made one final and got embarrassed by the Bulls, they rarely threaten the semi's. The Blues regularly threaten the semi's, occasionally make it and haven't won since Fitzpatrick retired. So, by your definition, four New Zealand team would be classed as chronic under-achievers. I guess if you looked at SA then at least four of their teams are chronic under-achievers too.
When there are 15 teams and only one winner each year, saying that the only successful team is the one that comes first is setting the bar so high that you have changed the English meaning of the word successful. It does sharply highlight just how good the Crusaders have been that half the time they win it and almost every year they are in the final. But a couple of years they only made the semi's, so maybe they are unsuccessful too.
Your Shute team hasn't made the semi's in my memory, so they're under-achievers too.
Any team that consistently makes the semi's year after year are not under-achievers. The Super comp is a bloody hard comp to win. Everything has to go just right all the way. A big injury toll and you're cooked. Injury to one of your key players and you're cooked too. Link has won one and made the final two other times. Is he an under-achieving coach? Not on your life he isn't, despite him coaching for five or six years to get that.
If you want to single out under-achievers in Australia look to the post-2004 Brumbies or the Force. The Waratahs haven't won it yet but they've gone bloody close twice now and it won't be long before the injury Gods give us a break. Rewatch the first Reds-Tahs game from this year and then tell me that Tahs team wouldn't have given the Reds a far tougher examination than they got from the Saders this year in the final.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Hawko
You have completely missed the point.
My shute shield team (they're not actually but I put 'em on to show some support for one of the places that needs ARU attention) as you call them are not under achievers because they do not have the player numbers that, say, gordon do: now theres a club of under achievers over decades. The Emus qality is an issue too - but thats too subjective to talk about at this stage.
I dont know enough about the NZ provinces to comment on whether they fullfil their potential or not.
I can tell you that 40 odd years of watching the Tahs is enough to know that they have never fulfilled their potential, except arguably for a period when R McQueen coached them.
Its not about absolute results its about results relative to potential.
Simply put the equation is this:
The blokes that the Tahs have not selected who came from NSW have won more comps than the blokes they have selected who came from NSW.
Thats means: P R O B L E M with selection processes or problem with the processes that are intended to realise perceived potential.
No one gets selections right all the time. But given the number of NSW bred players who have tasted success elsewhere either the blokes who were picked ahead of them have not fulfilled the potential the someone saw in them or the wrong player was picked. either way as a state that equals underperformance relative to potential over a long long period of time.
You have completely missed the point.
My shute shield team (they're not actually but I put 'em on to show some support for one of the places that needs ARU attention) as you call them are not under achievers because they do not have the player numbers that, say, gordon do: now theres a club of under achievers over decades. The Emus qality is an issue too - but thats too subjective to talk about at this stage.
I dont know enough about the NZ provinces to comment on whether they fullfil their potential or not.
I can tell you that 40 odd years of watching the Tahs is enough to know that they have never fulfilled their potential, except arguably for a period when R McQueen coached them.
Its not about absolute results its about results relative to potential.
Simply put the equation is this:
The blokes that the Tahs have not selected who came from NSW have won more comps than the blokes they have selected who came from NSW.
Thats means: P R O B L E M with selection processes or problem with the processes that are intended to realise perceived potential.
No one gets selections right all the time. But given the number of NSW bred players who have tasted success elsewhere either the blokes who were picked ahead of them have not fulfilled the potential the someone saw in them or the wrong player was picked. either way as a state that equals underperformance relative to potential over a long long period of time.
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
I think we did dominate the physical, we just lost our main attacking weapon due to careless play on a reds players part.
@ Inside Shoulder
Obviously Phil Waugh vs George Smith is the selection issue you've highlighted most.
Whilst it might all be well and good in hindsight, I don't think it would have been an easy or wise selection decision for NSW to bypass Phil Waugh when he left high school.
He was a year older than George Smith and was a star schoolboy player. NSW would have effectively said they didn't want him and wait a year for George Smith. Also, as a clear emerging talent, George Smith wasn't going to join a Super Rugby team with a player who was ahead of him at that point in time when he could walk into the starting team at the Brumbies.
Obviously Phil Waugh vs George Smith is the selection issue you've highlighted most.
Whilst it might all be well and good in hindsight, I don't think it would have been an easy or wise selection decision for NSW to bypass Phil Waugh when he left high school.
He was a year older than George Smith and was a star schoolboy player. NSW would have effectively said they didn't want him and wait a year for George Smith. Also, as a clear emerging talent, George Smith wasn't going to join a Super Rugby team with a player who was ahead of him at that point in time when he could walk into the starting team at the Brumbies.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
No its not about those 2 - they were examples
Is anyone suggesting that in the last 15 years NSW have never had the cattle to win the comp?
20?
I thought not.
I think NSW's strongest team was this year. It had all the right elements to be a real contender and was absolutely cruelled by injury.
Since Super Rugby has begun, NSW has never been the team that has had the bulk of the Wallaby backline. We've also been pretty light on in terms of options at Number 10.
Since Super Rugby has begun, NSW has never been the team that has had the bulk of the Wallaby backline. We've also been pretty light on in terms of options at Number 10.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Theres always an excuse - 2010 & 2011 can be put down to crap coaching rather than injury
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
I really don't think Hickey was a bad coach at all. He gets a pretty unfair rap considring the results and opinions of the players he receives. The Tahs "boring" play that led to the fan forum bullshit only came up du to the terrible game against the cheetahs. If they didn't lose that it is unlikely it would have been discussed at all.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
They were one dimensional.
Anyway lets see what happens in 2012......
Anyway lets see what happens in 2012......
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
But that comes down to the injuries, we didn't have depth in the backs to cover for barnes and Mitchell, someone pointed out to me the other day Paki dropped 3 try's over the line, two of which would have put the Tahs in the lead in the last 15 of a game. It's not always the coach.
Hardtackle
Charlie Fox (21)
It's been said that if it wasn't for beer, props would rule the world. Could a prop be your skipper? Can't ever remember one. Maybe since beer drinking is not as encouraged these days, props mightn't be too busy.
Fatcat is one of your best players, if not your best, so he'll get picked each game - assuming he's fit. He seems like a good bloke so ref managment should be ok. He can string a few words together. He has the respect of his team mates. And what's more he can dance.
Fatcat is one of your best players, if not your best, so he'll get picked each game - assuming he's fit. He seems like a good bloke so ref managment should be ok. He can string a few words together. He has the respect of his team mates. And what's more he can dance.
James Buchanan
Trevor Allan (34)
They're invariably off doing important things like developing a unified theory of relativity or winning scrums. They let other people who don't have such meaningful things in their life have the small consolation of being captain.
Hardtackle
Charlie Fox (21)
Fair point. Must be why I was never a captain.
Edit: that and beer
Edit: that and beer
I don't think Link ever got many opportunities to be a captain, but you'd have to assume from his coaching success that he'd have done a decent job.
Hardtackle
Charlie Fox (21)
Conspiracy against props I reckon. Come on Tahs right the wrongs of a million years and give fatcat the gig.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Every team gets injuries
The tahs were one dimensional from the opening round
Frankly, they played with fear - the fear of failure
No doubt that's because of people like me and the expectation for every season, includibf, it seems, 2012
To try and assist I abandoned my support for them but that didn't help
No doubt threads like this maintain their fear of failure
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