2012 Rugby Championship Game 2 New Zealand vs Australia - 25 August

[waratahjesus]

Im just saying you cant argue Barnes is 'x amount better' based on a RC game and then compare it to Quade performance in the RWC Semi..
Barnes never started in the RWC Semi-final so we will never know how he would have performed..

Agree, as I've said several times I prefer Quade and Barnes to play together at international level as between them we get what we need in total.

I was making the point that cooper got what he asked for in the extra attention and "public enemy number 1" crap. He bathed in it and found it funny then failed to live up to the hype. Not just nthe semi but the entire RWC for mine. It's fine to say the guy has xfactor and he does,he is wonderful for Qld and when he has space. Against he all blacks
From now to the end of time though, he is going to get smashed. They hate him and celebrate his failure and will get a lift out of him playing. I'm not sure we are are smart enough or well balanced team to take that pressure off him and allow him the time and extra space to create anything.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Dude, for someone who was reluctant to swing the axe, there's a bit of chopping been done there! But at the risk of starting it all again, Simmons did nothing to move Timani out of the starting spot. I'm not saying Timani played well - only that he played much better than Simmons. The tight head came from Timani being checked for concussion and Simmons locking.

The reason for shifting Timani to the bench, is simple. In the 74 minutes he was on the field, how many Lineouts did he win, did he steal or were even thrown to him. ZERO! That is right, he had zero impact in the lineout, he was a passenger. Simmons at least is a gem in the lineout, and isn't any less effective in genral play.

Most of the changes were positional or straight swaps to/from the bench. The only new comers are Shippers, Tapuai and Cooper. Out of the 22 from last week, 19 are still there.

 

[Braveheart81]

The reason for shifting Timani to the bench, is simple. In the 74 minutes he was on the field, how many Lineouts did he win, did he steal or were even thrown to him. ZERO! That is right, he had zero impact in the lineout, he was a passenger. Simmons at least is a gem in the lineout, and isn't any less effective in genral play.

Most of the changes were positional or straight swaps to/from the bench. The only new comers are Shippers, Tapuai and Cooper. Out of the 22 from last week, 19 are still there.

Timani is not in the side for his lineout skills and when we have Sharpe, Higginbotham and Dennis on the field he doesn't need to be.

Our lineout went well on the weekend. Citing that as the reason why Timani shouldn't play seems ridiculous to me.

 

[scaraby]

The reason for shifting Timani to the bench, is simple. In the 74 minutes he was on the field, how many Lineouts did he win, did he steal or were even thrown to him. ZERO! That is right, he had zero impact in the lineout, he was a passenger. Simmons at least is a gem in the lineout, and isn't any less effective in genral play.

Most of the changes were positional or straight swaps to/from the bench. The only new comers are Shippers, Tapuai and Cooper. Out of the 22 from last week, 19 are still there.

As I've said before numerous times..why is Simmons given so many chances?. He was touted as the next John Eales some time ago and has done nothing...We have a heap of promising up and comers and about 4 games with Sharpy left to help them...so why not now?

 

[Swat]

I was making the point that cooper got what he asked for in the extra attention and "public enemy number 1" crap. He bathed in it and found it funny then failed to live up to the hype. Not just nthe semi but the entire RWC for mine. It's fine to say the guy has xfactor and he does,he is wonderful for Qld and when he has space. Against he all blacks
From now to the end of time though, he is going to get smashed. They hate him and celebrate his failure and will get a lift out of him playing. I'm not sure we are are smart enough or well balanced team to take that pressure off him and allow him the time and extra space to create anything.

I think this is even more evidence for why we should be playing a second playmaker at 12, with the opposition focusing more on Quade it increases the opportunities for the men outside him which with our current one-dimensional centers won't be readily exploited.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Just noticed that there's no poll for this thread?

Nothing sinister there. I forgot to add it before I hit the "Create new thread" button. Once you miss that opportunity, the OP can not add a poll using the "edit" post button.

I have asked the mods to add a poll, but maybe they may not be able to add one retrospectively either.

Lesson learned and I didn't hit the create thread button too early on the Saffer vs Puma game 2 thread.

 

[Loki74]

Agree, as I've said several times I prefer Quade and Barnes to play together at international level as between them we get what we need in total.

I was making the point that cooper got what he asked for in the extra attention and "public enemy number 1" crap. He bathed in it and found it funny then failed to live up to the hype. Not just nthe semi but the entire RWC for mine. It's fine to say the guy has xfactor and he does,he is wonderful for Qld and when he has space. Against he all blacks
From now to the end of time though, he is going to get smashed. They hate him and celebrate his failure and will get a lift out of him playing. I'm not sure we are are smart enough or well balanced team to take that pressure off him and allow him the time and extra space to create anything.

Me neither. Amongst other things, surely the coaching staff should have told him to pull his head in well before the Cup to take some pressure off him. I know it would have grated, but a non-apology at least - something like - I play the game to win and won't apologise for that. However, in heat of the moment may have overstepped. Have utmost respect for McCaw, but still won't be taking a backward step on the field. Seemed like Deans and others bought into this idea that Cooper would feed off the negativity. Could have been managed much better imo.

I think one of the worst results will be if Cooper comes in now at Eden Park under immense pressure, has an average game and is scapegoated for the debacle when Deans is the one who has set it up that way (if he even picks him). On the plus side, Link has consistently managed to get great results out of Cooper and will probably be in charge before too long.

 

[Scoey]

The reason for shifting Timani to the bench, is simple. In the 74 minutes he was on the field, how many Lineouts did he win, did he steal or were even thrown to him. ZERO! That is right, he had zero impact in the lineout, he was a passenger. Simmons at least is a gem in the lineout, and isn't any less effective in genral play.

Most of the changes were positional or straight swaps to/from the bench. The only new comers are Shippers, Tapuai and Cooper. Out of the 22 from last week, 19 are still there.

As BH said, Timani is not picked for his lineout ability. And just because he didn't take any lineout throws doesn't make him a passenger. Having a bloke like him as a lifter is a massive bonus, and probably one of the reasons our lineout was so effective. So your criticism of Timani is not well directed I don't think. If you wanted to have a go at him I would agree with criticisms of him walking often and being slow to get into position etc.

As for the comments about the changes I was merely poking fun but since you mentioned it, yes you only changed two players but your backline has a new player at 10, 12, 13 & 14 with 2 backs reserves being changed also. So essentially all you're leaving alone is Genia, Ioane, and Beale. Like I said, just busting your chops but!

 

[Lee Enfield]

As I've said before numerous times..why is Simmons given so many chances?. He was touted as the next John Eales some time ago and has done nothing.We have a heap of promising up and comers and about 4 games with Sharpy left to help them.so why not now?

Simmons may not be the long term option, but for this series, at least at this point, he is better than Timani.
The Spring tour will be the best chance to try out the fringe players. Deans has picked his squad and we will have to make do with it for at least another week.

 

[Scotty]

I actually think we are in for about 18 months of hell playing the All Blacks. They are right at the peak of their powers and we, well, we simply have too many weak spots - one look at our bench makes that just so obvious.

So if my premise is correct, then what should we do? Consider these games as harm minimization options or development options.

With the former we may keep it close, the latter in 18 months we may have a damn good, blooded side.

Very difficult to be using it as development because we want our top side to be playing to ensure we have the best chance to beat everyone else. However if we did, I'd be bringing Slipper, Neville, Gill, Jones, Tapuai, Morahan into the side.

Dropped until they find form - Robinson, Higginbotham, Horne, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

 

[FrankLind]

Playing Cooper is great motivation for the ABs. Not just because they probably still view him as a bit of a dick, but because he is potentially lethal weapon for the Aussies.

Woodcock is out. He will be replaced by Wyatt Crockett. Crockett isn't as good in the scrums, too tall, but is equal in the loose.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7517578/Prop-Tony-Woodcock-ruled-out-for-All-Blacks

 

[Lee Enfield]

As BH said, Timani is not picked for his lineout ability. And just because he didn't take any lineout throws doesn't make him a passenger. Having a bloke like him as a lifter is a massive bonus, and probably one of the reasons our lineout was so effective. So your criticism of Timani is not well directed I don't think. If you wanted to have a go at him I would agree with criticisms of him walking often and being slow to get into position etc.

As for the comments about the changes I was merely poking fun but since you mentioned it, yes you only changed two players but your backline has a new player at 10, 12, 13 & 14 with 2 backs reserves being changed also. So essentially all you're leaving alone is Genia, Ioane, and Beale. Like I said, just busting your chops but!

Yeah I get it, but they have all played together in those positions previously and it worked.

As for Timani, apart from lineouts, in 74 minutes he attempted 9 tackles, making 7. He made 4 runs and hit 2 rucks/mauls. Combine that lack of general play with his lineout work, what does he contribute?
He isn't the only one, there are others who need to lift their work rate as well.

 

[Braveheart81]

As for Timani, apart from lineouts, in 74 minutes he attempted 9 tackles, making 7. He made 4 runs and hit 2 rucks/mauls. Combine that lack of general play with his lineout work, what does he contribute?
He isn't the only one, there are others who need to lift their work rate as well.

Yet he was equal highest tackler amongst our forwards.

If we're looking at criticising players based on statistics, it would seem most forwards would be worthy of criticism in front of Timani.

 

[Joe Blow]

WJ, the Kiwis may love to hate Quade but probably are neither here nor there regarding BB because he offers no threat. I think they were generally surprised when QC (Quade Cooper) was not named in our 22 last week and may have gone into the game supremely confident because of it.
Quade has had a rough trot against them, of his own making of course, but still should be given a chance to right the ship.
He will get better with experience, good and bad. From what I saw in his last few games for Qld he is on the right track. The suspension was rubbish and not deserved.
The selectors need to decide upon which direction they want to go, progression or limiting damage to their own reputations by attempting to maintain the status quo. The latter does not work as if you do not continue to develop you get left behind. Surely Deans and Co should have learned their lesson in this regard by now.
I would wager not. We will see when they name their 22.

 

[waratahjesus]

Yeah I get it, but they have all played together in those positions previously and it worked.

As for Timani, apart from lineouts, in 74 minutes he attempted 9 tackles, making 7. He made 4 runs and hit 2 rucks/mauls. Combine that lack of general play with his lineout work, what does he contribute?
He isn't the only one, there are others who need to lift their work rate as well.

He saved a try after the all blacks had Aline break and he managed to knock the ball out of the runners hand forcing a knock on that kept us within 5 and a chance of winning til after the final whistle, but focus on negatives whilst not comparing his contribution to the other forwards who have actual reputations and delivered the same.

 

[waratahjesus]

WJ, the Kiwis may love to hate Quade but probably are neither here nor there regarding BB because he offers no threat. I think they were generally surprised when QC (Quade Cooper) was not named in our 22 last week and may have gone into the game supremely confident because of it.
Quade has had a rough trot against them, of his own making of course, but still should be given a chance to right the ship.
He will get better with experience, good and bad. From what I saw in his last few games for Qld he is on the right track. The suspension was rubbish and not deserved.
The selectors need to decide upon which direction they want to go, progression or limiting damage to their own reputations by attempting to maintain the status quo. The latter does not work as if you do not continue to develop you get left behind. Surely Deans and Co should have learned their lesson in this regard by now.
I would wager not. We will see when they name their 22.

Agree, I have never stated Barnes was a better player. I have simply disagreed that bringing cooper back automatically means more try's and a better chance of winning.

 

[Braveheart81]

A lot of the criticism from game one seems to be coming back to the same few players who were controversial selections beforehand. Even though in my opinion, the controversial selections weren't even close to our worst players.

If I was going to rank our players in game one from best to worst, this is where I would put them.

Best:
1. Sharpe - really solid game... gave away too many penalties though
2. Ioane - only real impetus in attack
3. Barnes - solid without much flair. Goal kicking was good.
4. Polota-Nau - got the lineout right, better than most of our forwards
5. Pocock - not close to his usual best but suffered an injury
6. Genia - well down on his usual best. Couldn't establish any urgency in our forward pack. He needs to marshall the troops.
7. Kepu - One or our better forwards
8. Timani - Made plenty of tackles. Probably his best test so far.
9. Horne - did nothing in attack but was solid in defence
10. Dennis - anonymous but didn't make errors
11. Fainga'a - missed some early tackles, anonymous in attack, kicked away turnover ball with a bad kick
12. Ashley-Cooper - poor defensive contributed to Dagg being open in the first try. Struggled to get much involvement
13. Robinson - poor game, gave away penalties, out of form.
14. Higginbotham - awful test. Anonymous except when he made errors
15. Beale - had a complete shocker.

Moore looked good when he came on and deserves a chance starting due to being a world class player.
Slipper should also get a start based on Robinson's poor form. Didn't excel when he came on though and still gave away a scrum penalty.
Simmons provided no real impact when he came on.
Samo provided some impact off the bench and is suited to being a 20-30 minute impact player.

 

[Reddy!]

The Wallabies attack has been in decline since the domestic tests at the beginning of 2011 when Deans decided to ditch any creativity in the centres and put in Pat McCabe, Horne, Fainagaa etc.

 

[Karl]

Surely there are some sort of checks and balances on Dingo and his selections? When he leaves a fit and eager Cooper out of the SQUAD he's just taking the piss and it calls into serious question his judgement on a range of issues. The way Barnes stands flat footed in the Marianas Trench in attack with his backs somewhere in the fucking Mantle is the kind of shit that has me yelling at the u9's i coach on Saturday mornings - how is it happening in our National side as the head coaches' preference? It's beyond comprehension. And when we see our forwards so abysmally out of condition, walking to rucks, puffed after a half of a half, no intensity - none of it makes any sense at all. None.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Yet he was equal highest tackler amongst our forwards.

If we're looking at criticising players based on statistics, it would seem most forwards would be worthy of criticism in front of Timani.

And that is the reason we aren't beating the All Blacks and we are so up and down. Many of the forwards are not doing the hard work and Timani is just one of a number of forwards who would get the chop. Simmons may not be the greatest, however he out played his rivals in the Australian conference this year.

Of those available and not injured, if the turn around between games was sufficient, I would like to see the Wallabies try against the Boks or Argies a team of:

1. Slipper 2. Moore 3. Palmer 4. Simmons 5. Pyle 6. Dennis 7. Hooper 8. Schatz 9. Genia 10. Cooper 11. Ioane 12. O'Connor 13. Tapuai 14. Shippers 15. Beale
16. Hansen 17. Holmes 18. Sharpe 19. Higgers/Gill 20. Lucas 21. Barnes/Harris 22. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)