Australia v Argentina - 21 November, Newcastle

[Viking]

I'm a big proponent of the idea that you can't use a versatile 6/lock hybrid player at lock against strong test packs. The scrum ends up going backwards. Chieka and Deans both learned that lesson. It works fine against an average scrum, but against the best packs it doesn't. Hanigan worked ok against the All Blacks because our front row had the wood on them. This pumas scrum will be a different kettle of fish

I disgree. You have no evidence at all that Hanigan is a poor scummaging lock. You could argue MOST hybrid 6/locks in the past have been poor scrummagers at lock (like scott Fardy)... but there is every chance a hybrid 6/lock CAN scrummage. In fact, there is now evidence he can since he did against the All Blacks.

Maybe give him a chance before you pigeon hole him into a category just because of the number on his jersey.

 

[Namerican]

I was basically the Ned Hanigan of my team. I tried the hardest, knew the gameplan inside out, followed the coaches instructions to a T, was a good team mate, could play many positions equally poorly, did not take too many dumb penalties. And the coaches always picked me. And I always wondered why? The other guys might have been flakes, but they could make things happen. The best I could do was basically be neutral. I view Hanigan the same way. It is basically impossible that he could outplay his opposite number.

I think in a team environment coaches get blinded by effort, commitment etc. and feel obliged to pick the players with the most in these categories. They are also control freaks and we basically know exactly how Hanigan is going to play on Saturday. But the actual impact is just not enough for this level. That and I assume Hanigan shows up well on the stats sheet in terms of work rate.

 

[Viking]

It always seems there are a couple of players that coaches seem to see differently to us armchair critics. Samu is a case in point, I really rate the guy, yet neither Cheika nor Rennie seem impressed. Whether it's how he trains, or he is given specific instructions in a game and just doesn't follow them, I don't know. Opposite to that is Hanigan, who I think is a good Super player, but has only very occasionally reached test standard, however both Cheika and Rennie seem to rate him. Again, possibly they give him a very specific role to play in the game plan, and he fulfils it. Any ideas?

Theory: It must be effort in training. Hangigan seems like the type of bloke who puts in 110%. Being a country bloke probably used to hard work and thrives in those conditions. Probably looks like he has more strength then he does at training since most of it is more effort then the next person. However, he is not a natural athlete and needs to train hard to develop his skills.

Samu is probably the opposite.

Or maybe it's as simple as: Hanigan is a solid line-out jumper and Samu isn't.

EDIT: Namerican's post above summed it up better then I did.

 

[dru]

I was basically the Ned Hanigan of my team. I tried the hardest, knew the gameplan inside out, followed the coaches instructions to a T, was a good team mate, did not take too many dumb penalties. And the coaches always picked me. And I always wondered why? The other guys might have been flakes, but they could make things happen. The best I could do was basically be neutral. I view Hanigan the same way. It is basically impossible that he could outplay his opposite number.

I think in a team environment coaches get blinded by effort, commitment etc. and feel obliged to pick the players with the most in these categories. They are also control freaks and we basically know exactly how Hanigan is going to play on Saturday. But the actual impact is just not enough for this level. That and I assume Hanigan shows up well on the stats sheet in terms of work rate.

Speculation based on your own play? (Actually, I like it.)

Seems to me that Hanigan is a better 6 than LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) but not a better lock. We have a wealth of options in the back row but not in the second row - so we can put Rennie selections into perspective.

Despite the general enthusiasm for the Argie back row I back our guys there. Second row has its issues. This is Rennie take with the personnel currently available. It is interesting. I’m not going to call it inspiring right now but I’m hoping Rennie proves it that way.

Thank god we are playing any colour but black.

WBs by 12.

 

[Jaguardo]

15. Santiago Carreras
14. Bautista Delguy
13. Matías Orlando
12. Santiago Chocobares
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Tomás Cubelli
8. Rodrigo Bruni
7. Marcos Kremer
6. Pablo Matera (c)
5. Matías Alemanno
4. Guido Petti
3. Francisco Gómez Kodela
2. Julián Montoya
1. Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro

Reserves:

16. Santiago Socino
17. Mayco Vivas
18. Santiago Medrano
19. Santiago Grondona
20. Facundo Isa
21. Gonzalo Bertranou
22. Emiliano Boffelli
23. Santiago Cordero

 

[gel]

I can't really recall Ned missing many tackles, dropping the ball or getting turned over. I can't really recall him throwing a lot of shitty passes, or kicking the ball when he should have run it either.

Maybe what he lacks in impact, he more than makes up for in being reliable? That's gotta be a strength in a team like the wallabies, which has (let's be honest) been pretty much shit in basic skills for quite a while.

I dunno. I'm just trying to figure it out too, as I haven't been too impressed by him over the years.

 

[Viking]

Hanigan gave away 2 penalties last match he started so maybe not exactly Mr Reliable.

 

[Up the Guts]

If Cheik had picked this team he would have gotten his arse pounded. Still I reckon there’s enough there to get it done. I’d probably have had Neville on the bench as the reserve lock or started someone else at 6 and had Ned come off the bench but it’s tough with the lock depth so thin.

 

[TSR]

Out of the candidates for the 6 jersey - Hanigan & Wright are the best 2 lineout operators, have the highest work rates and I believe they are the two most accurate defenders. I rate Wright better at the breakdown, but Hanigan better in contact. Hanigan also looks the better lineout operator to me, but Wright is no mug there.

Valetini is better in contact but weaker everywhere else.

Samu is better at the breakdown and is better in the wide channels, but Rennie is playing Wilson there and I think Hanigan is as good or better in the middle of the park. Hanigan is better in the other categories.

I will put a disclaimer up that I haven’t looked up their tackle success rate. If I am wrong in my thoughts there happy to be corrected.

But otherwise that is my take on his performance/ongoing selection.I would add that I think he has been above par in his games so far and continues to suffer in the broader public, and possibly also on here, from Cheika persisting with him for too long when he wasn’t ready. Perceptions are hard things to shake.

The reality is the 6 jersey is still there for someone to grab with both hands, but all of the options have shortcomings and I feel this is on of those times when the players who aren’t getting selected are getting the benefit of the doubt that they would do better when there is no obvious evidence that would be true.

 

[wamberal]

Whoever wears the 6 jersey against this Argie team will be under the pump. While I think there has been a lot too much unfounded criticism about Hanigan, this is one time that I am a bit surprised to see him starting.

 

[Dctarget]

15. Santiago Carreras
14. Bautista Delguy
13. Matías Orlando
12. Santiago Chocobares
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Tomás Cubelli
8. Rodrigo Bruni
7. Marcos Kremer
6. Pablo Matera (c)
5. Matías Alemanno
4. Guido Petti
3. Francisco Gómez Kodela
2. Julián Montoya
1. Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro

Reserves:

16. Santiago Socino
17. Mayco Vivas
18. Santiago Medrano
19. Santiago Grondona
20. Facundo Isa
21. Gonzalo Bertranou
22. Emiliano Boffelli
23. Santiago Cordero

Wallabies have to watch out for Santiago, he'll be everywhere.

 

[Up the Guts]

The ABs were very narrow against Argentina which played right into the hands of the big backrow who did very well in the wrestle close to the ruck. We saw twice when Sotutu took it from the back of the scrum the flankers just didn’t have the pace to shut him down. On one occasion he made 30m and on another he created an opportunity for a try. Perhaps rather than trying to outmuscle them with Valetini or Naisarani starting we’re going to try and stretch them thin on the edges.

 

[Pfitzy]

Whoever wears the 6 jersey against this Argie team will be under the pump. While I think there has been a lot too much unfounded criticism about Hanigan, this is one time that I am a bit surprised to see him starting.

Hanigan versus Kremer... Hmmm...

 

[Derpus]

It always seems there are a couple of players that coaches seem to see differently to us armchair critics. Samu is a case in point, I really rate the guy, yet neither Cheika nor Rennie seem impressed. Whether it's how he trains, or he is given specific instructions in a game and just doesn't follow them, I don't know. Opposite to that is Hanigan, who I think is a good Super player, but has only very occasionally reached test standard, however both Cheika and Rennie seem to rate him. Again, possibly they give him a very specific role to play in the game plan, and he fulfils it. Any ideas?

This is exactly how i feel.

 

[Pfitzy]

Balance factor as well - some guys are just right for the combinations you're bringing in the forward pack.

Samu's a bit of a halfling in terms of back row - is he a 7 or an 8? Depends who else is available.

Someone like Caleb Timu looked to have the right stuff but where is he now?

 

[Up the Guts]

Balance factor as well - some guys are just right for the combinations you're bringing in the forward pack.

Samu's a bit of a halfling in terms of back row - is he a 7 or an 8? Depends who else is available.

Someone like Caleb Timu looked to have the right stuff but where is he now?

Wasn’t Timu the same sort of player as Naisarani with slightly worse lineout skills on account of his transition from League?

Still odd to me that Samu was rated highly enough to start the first test but hasn’t been heard of since.

 

[PhilClinton]

Someone like Caleb Timu looked to have the right stuff but where is he now?

Printing money as a capped Wallaby player playing for Montpellier

 

[Dusky W]

What did Tate do wrong to be dropped? I thought he played well when he came on. Upped the tempo of the forwards attack (having Tupou on helped), passed well, and sniped a couple of times so the defence had to keep watching him. He did drop off a couple of tackles. I rate Gordon highly as well but it's a tough call.

 

[TSR]

Timu’s problem was mainly ball security, IMO. Discipline was also a worry - although that may have been mainly perception.

I loved the bloke and he was outstanding for Qld 3 yrs ago I always felt like he was on the edge of completely losing it.

 

[PhilClinton]

I don't know about Samu - the theories of him being a bad trainer don't make sense to me.

He's come through the Crusaders system. I would think there isn't really room for slackers there, they have an abundance of players and a good setup, yet he managed to make their 23 consistently.