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Australia v Argentina, Sept 14th in Perth

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Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Whoever loses comes last overall...

Not literally right - but if we lose to them in WA we're stuffed.
i think we need to win with a bonus point to avoid sudden death in the Andes somewhere
Edit: Sheesh - just checked that - we can't avoid a sudden death game in Sth America even if we win with a bonus point - I think
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Link needs to contact Boral for an emergency supply of concrete to get the boys to HTFU.

Our defeat in the piggies was somewhat expected and predicted by many when the Saffer squad was announced but not many expected to see a capitulation of the magnitude we saw last night.
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
Please keep in mind that this is experimental but in terms of the backline, and chosen on the basis that the forwards are going to get seriously hassled no matter who is 1-8, I propose:

9. White. Genia is either comfortable or out of form. No longer an automatic selection at all whilst wh have someone better than Phipps as a backup.

10. To'omua. Improved in bled 2 and a better option for a team with no pack than Cooper, IMO. Allows a focus on doing the simple things well.

12. Lilo. He's the kicker.

13. Folau. I know, but hear me out. The only player that threatens to break tackles every time he touches the ball. The "fullback" plan was supposed to get him more involved but that didn't seem to work. His AFL experience notwithstanding I don't think he has the boot to be a test fullback.

14. Cummins. Not a good game agains the boks but runs hard and straight which is more than you can say for most of the others.

11. JOC (James O'Connor). Yeah, I mean, I don't know who else to put here.

15. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). This guy was the form fullback in the country 5 years ago and about the only nailed-on back that we had then. Solid defender and a more than reasonable boot.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Forget the showponies. This match will be won in the piggies.

We lost last night in the piggies.

We need to sort out who are the piggies who will beat Los Pumas, then decide on who will be the icing on the cake.

Be under no illusion, this game will be a tough mudder to win if Los Pumas keep their momentum from their game against the AIG's.
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
I don't think the guys that influence the strategy of the side (9,10) are really fairly described as showponies, especially not when I've named White and To'omua. They are about as "piggy" a half pair as we could select. If we are marginally better or worse than the other side (or equal) in the forwards, the halves can have a fairly significant influence on the outcome. Assuming that we will be marginally beaten in the forwards, I think White and To'omua give us the best chance to scrape out a win.

By all means though, name your forward pack that will make the selection of backs irrelevant.
 

Dumbledore

Dick Tooth (41)
Please keep in mind that this is experimental but in terms of the backline, and chosen on the basis that the forwards are going to get seriously hassled no matter who is 1-8, I propose:
Deckchair shuffling to no end and no purpose. The backs will remain a marginal influence until we develop a pack that can at least gain parity even if it can't achieve dominance.

So, do we say this current lot aren't up to it and start handing out caps to young players such as Sio, Pyle, Carter, Jones etc. or do we hang on and hope that with continuity and collective playing minutes we'll see improvement? Pocock, Palu and Higgers will presumably make a difference on return from injury, but we can't rely on that. Who's the forwards coach at the moment? The breakdown is an absolute shambles.
 

Dumbledore

Dick Tooth (41)
If we are marginally better or worse than the other side (or equal) in the forwards, the halves can have a fairly significant influence on the outcome.
That's a good point. The thing is though, we aren't marginally worse, we're getting completely fucked up.
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
Deckchair shuffling to no end and no purpose. The backs will remain a marginal influence until we develop a pack that can at least gain parity even if it can't achieve dominance.

I don't think that's true. I think that playing with a half pairing that is dedicated to playing the game at the right end of the paddock is a fairly strong idea when there's a good chance that we will have some difficulty in the pigs. Or would you rather play the game in our own 22 when we can't win a ruck?

As for swapping 13 and 15, I have reservations about Folau's kicking credentials regardless of whether we are getting smashed up front or not.
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
That's a good point. The thing is though, we aren't marginally worse, we're getting completely fucked up.

So - you think we shouldn't aim to be improved in the pack, we should just hope that we magically start dominating everyone and should pick the backline based on forward domination?

I've kinda assumed that we won't be dominating anyone up front, and that near to parity is as good as we'll get.
 

Dumbledore

Dick Tooth (41)
I'm saying that shuffling the backline isn't going to help things. I mean come on, you've just said AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has a reasonable boot. It's pop gun at the best of times. If you want to change the halves then fair enough, swapping AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Folau helps no one and achieves nothing.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
Deckchair shuffling to no end and no purpose. The backs will remain a marginal influence until we develop a pack that can at least gain parity even if it can't achieve dominance.

So, do we say this current lot aren't up to it and start handing out caps to young players such as Sio, Pyle, Carter, Jones etc. or do we hang on and hope that with continuity and collective playing minutes we'll see improvement? Pocock, Palu and Higgers will presumably make a difference on return from injury, but we can't rely on that. Who's the forwards coach at the moment? The breakdown is an absolute shambles.

The backs can still have a massive influence in how the forwards play though. If the backs are getting line breaks the forwards can lift and put in that extra effort to give them the support. Have seen it happen at all levels when the forwards are below parity with their opposites.
 
M

Muttonbird

Guest
I think if the Wallabies don't win a game this TRC it will be for the best. It will send a bullet up the ARU's arse and then, and only then, we might see some change and more importantly some challenge to VFL and NRL.
 

light

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Would not even look at changing the back line until we get our forwards sorted. The Argie pack looked seriously scary against the AB's and held parity in the scrums and line outs for the most part of the game. If we don't sort out our effectiveness in the breakdowns and find a front row that works, we are fucked no matter who is in our backline.

That being said, I have no real idea how we can fix this situation. I think the obvious problem is Genia but I can't see him being dropped after captaining the side last night.

I'd like to see plenty of changes and some new guys brought into the side.

Maybe we could go for something like this,
Robinson
Fainga'a
Slipper
Horwill
Pyle
Mowen
Gill
McCalman
White
To'omua
Cummins
Lilo
Horne
O'Connor
Folau


AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Moore and Genia to be rested. Cooper dropped to give To'omua another shot. Gill in and Mowen back to 6 where he belongs. Unlucky for Fardy but I'd have him come off the bench and cover 4-6.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
To my mind, we need to address the pack first and foremost. One way to think about is to consider who has been good and who has not over the last three games. I've chucked some guys into three categories. Some in the neutral are there because they simply haven't had enough time.

GOOD:
Fardy
Slipper
Hooper

NEUTRAL:
Gill
Mowen
Sio
Fainga'a
Simmons (1 great game, 2 crap ones)

POOR:
Alexander
Horwill
Moore
Kepu
McCalman
Douglas

INJURED:
Horwill
Pyle

What are our key deficiencies? Scrum, line out, breakdown, ball retention.

I think we need to make some changes to the forwards in general to address these issues, and we need to do it a way that holds players accountable for poor performances. I wouldn't drop any forward that has been good, and I would look to keep those that have been neutral. I would also be willing to bench those that have been poor.

1. Robinson/Sio
2. Fainga'a
3. Slipper
4. Fardy
5. Simmons
6. Gill
7. Hooper
8. Mowen

16. Moore
17. Sio/Robinson
18. Kepu (better than Alexander)
19. Carter Timani
20. McCalman (last man standing)

Going with Gill / Hooper is obviously risky, but I think we have to do something about ball retention while not punishing Hooper for playing well in every other aspect of the game.

EDIT: Totally forgot about Timani.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Horwill is out.

Sio - sorry, Robinson wont be back this week
Moore
Slipper
Fardy
Timani - pains me but he may just help the scrum and Douglas has been poor
Mowen
Gill
McCalman

Fainga'a
Alexander
Kepu
Simmons
Hooper

Leave the backs as is, pigs have to win this and honestly Genia is the only change I would make but that wont happen to the captain.

Argies will be well up for this game and may just sniff there first win I have no doubt they will show up.
 

light

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Mowen is not an 8 at test level and has been far from neutral in the last 3 tests.

IMO he plays at 6 or rides the pine.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
<snip>

By all means though, name your forward pack that will make the selection of backs irrelevant.

You have just hit the nail on the head. There isn't one ATM.

Given the injuries (hardly at crisis level) ATM, I'm not sure that we have all that much available.

Props: Need to get reschooled in old school scrummaging. Forget winning the hit. That is so Lions tour. I don't know of any. Fat Cat perhaps.

Hooker. We have been poorly served in this position for a number of years.

Locks: The possible substitutes, Pyle, Neville, Carter, Skelton (huge long shot) are all unproven and represent big risks.

Loose forwards: Higgers and Bam Bam are in Team Rehab. Fardy has played OK but is still green. Not convinced that McCalman, Mowen are of required standard. Palu too often injured.

Is it in Genesis that it is prophesised that there will be 7 years of famine following 7 good years?
Dingo only arrived 5 years ago and his first year wasn't too bad. We still have a year or two of famine to go.
 

Hawko

Geoff Shaw (53)
Is it in Genesis that it is prophesised that there will be 7 years of famine following 7 good years?
Dingo only arrived 5 years ago and his first year wasn't too bad. We still have a year or two of famine to go.

I had hoped that two years of Connolly followed by five years of Deans meant that our famine was coming to an end. But I have to say it doesn't look like it!
 
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