Homophobic remark in Tahs Brumbies game

[Godfrey]

I see what you are saying Froggy, and referenced a similar point earlier. People use these words in place of things like bad, stupid, fuckhead, idiot, whatever. That's a huge problem and not acceptable, but there's a difference between that and being someone who genuinely hates or would want to hurt gay people. I don't think the points you guys are arguing are mutually exclusive at all.

 

[Merrow]

So it was directed at everyone? That's ok then.

 

[barbarian]

@Barbarian, are you taking about the name caller being embarrassed or the player that was slandered? Makes a bit of a difference.

Both, really. I agree it's not on, but I'm not sure a big public circus without hard evidence is the best way to deal with the offending player.

Ultimately I think Froggy has a point - the intent behind the comment matters. If it was just something said exasperatedly in the heat of the battle at the bottom of a ruck, well it's still wrong but I have more sympathy for that than something directed multiple times at a specific player. If it was the latter then a suspension is entirely appropriate.

There is still plenty of grey around this whole matter, especially in the absence of any audio evidence.
.

 

[barbarian]

So it was directed at everyone? That's ok then.

He's not saying that at all. This debate isn't helped by misrepresenting the arguments of others.

 

[qwerty51]

I think it might have been, obviously I'm speculating but most sledging is done at scrum time before and after as a psychological battle. It's possible after the Tahs demolished the Brumbies scrum someone said it referring to the Brumbies pack. Obviously it's still not ok but I think context is important, that wouldn't have been said in a homophobic manner, just a really ignorant one.

 

[Merrow]

Not to labour the point Qwerty but I still can't see how that makes it ok. I don't have a problem with sledging, but in my world (apparently small and absolute as it may be) homophobic and racist sledging is shit. That's it...I'm out.

 

[Godfrey]

You're starting to be a little obtuse - he said "it's still not ok". I don't know why you keep declaring people think it makes it ok?

 

[Merrow]

Ok, I'll apologise for missing the words "it's not ok", and I don't mean to bang on about it. My problem is that I don't understand how using that word can be construed as anything else but homophobic. Unless of course the person in question was referring to the Brumbies as a bundle of sticks, which I'm pretty sure they weren't.

Ignorance to me isn't an excuse. Aaaaand once again, I'm out.

 

[Braveheart81]

My problem is that I don't understand how using that word can be construed as anything else but homophobic.

No one was saying that it wasn't homophobic. I think the point others were making is that like anything, there are varying degrees of severity in what happened.

In my opinion, if the comment was made to a villify a person known to them as being gay, it is far worse than say making the comment at someone who you know isn't gay and then below that would be just making the outburst without directing it at any person in particular.

All of those things are homophobic and there is no place for them in society but the seriousness and level of hatred and homophobia displayed in each situation varies.

 

[Merrow]

And I understand where you're coming from, but...............
I'm out. I kind of think you guys know my opinion by now

 

[Pfitzy]

He's not saying that at all. This debate isn't helped by misrepresenting the arguments of others.

Welcome to GAGR. You're the last to arrive.

 

[Godfrey]

Merrow I think your heart is absolutely in the right place on this one and I don't disagree with your standpoint. I just don't think anyone else really does either. I think most people want this kind of stuff out of society and when it is used in that way that is more ignorant than hateful (think bogan calling his mate a fag vs Fred Phelps), you need to look at the culture that makes people feel comfortable doing that. Whereas a hateful fuck who's abusing someone should be strung up.

 

[Godfrey]

Should this part of the discussion be it's own thread somewhere? I think it's a good discussion that is a credit to GAGR so far and hasn't gone down any shitty paths, but it still prevents people talking about the game with any rhythm.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The problem is Froggy, you don't know whether any of the Brumbie players are gay do you? It isn't acceptable, it's not political correctness, there is no justification for calling people that word in any circumstance. How can you not see that?

I don't get this bit either: why does it matter if there is one or are 15 or 23 gay players in the Brumbies squad?
If you're against it then it should not be said irrespective of the assumed make up of your opponents.
And that's another thing wrong with the way Pocock put it: its not about whether a hypothetical gay player in either team would be personally offended: in fact that's the very thing it never can be about.

 

[Merrow]

Don't get me started again

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't have a problem with sledging

I think this is a widely held position but i think it needs to be examined.
The nature of sledging in almost every case is that it involves some form of vilification - of your mother, your sister, your brother, your dog or whatever.
Are we saying some forms are OK but others are not? If we are why are we saying that?

 

[Merrow]

Example of good natured sledge

Greg Thomas had beaten Viv Richards' bat a couple of times and told the legendary West Indian captain: "It's red, round and weighs about five ounces, in case you were wondering." The very next ball was smashed out of the ground by King Vivian at which point Richards piped up: "Greg, you know what it looks like. Now go and find it."

Or words to that effect...not sure it was that clean though

 

[Latts1992]

In my opinion, if the comment was made to a villify a person known to them as being gay, it is far worse than say making the comment at someone who you know isn't gay and then below that would be just making the outburst without directing it at any person in particular.

Sure that's your opinion. I disagree. I believe that while the word is used to denegrate an action as bad, weak or inferior it actually has a greater impact on those who have not come to terms with their sexuality. Gay youth have an incredibly high rate of depression and often this comes about due to feeling that they are in some way bad or wrong. By throwing around denegrating words you just reinforce this and it is completely unacceptable in professional sport, just as in any workplace.

 

[Godfrey]

In response to Inside Shoulder: That's a discussion worth having. In your examples at least they generally don't imply any inherent wrongness with mothers, sisters, brothers or dogs whereas with things like casual homophobia you're not just having a go at the person, but identifying gayness with "badness" of some form. It contributes to a culture that can have devastating effects on people who have no choice in the matter. That isn't to say you can't say something about someone's mother (or any other kind of sledge) that won't devastate the person.

It's really hard when you sit down eliminate your cognitive dissonance on these kind of things - where exactly do you draw the line? I guess everyone has their own and I'd know mine when I see it, but it's very hard to define.

 

[Godfrey]

Sure that's your opinion. I disagree. I believe that while the word is used to denegrate an action as bad, weak or inferior it actually has a greater impact on those who have not come to terms with their sexuality. Gay youth have an incredibly high rate of depression and often this comes about due to feeling that they are in some way bad or wrong. By throwing around denegrating words you just reinforce this and it is completely unacceptable in professional sport, just as in any workplace.

I feel like I'm constantly jumping in on this thread so I'll stop contributing for a bit. But just saying that Braveheart has repeatedly acknowledged those issues and stated that it's not acceptable in any scenario. I am passionately opposed to homophobia but I can admit that some forms are more serious than others - the less serious ones can still be really, really serious. E.g. Taking someone out the back of a pub and beating them up for being gay vs calling your mate a fag for wearing a colourful shirt (if people still do that).

He's on your side!