IS OUR GAME GROWING?

[Bowside]

Sydney subbies has an under 85s comp. Only 6 teams play in it though.

Brisbane/QLD doesnt really have a strong subbies comp. Half the teams in it are just the lowest grade teams from the premier clubs, there are a few independent clubs but not nearly as many as in sydney. There is no subbies colts either. You probably already know all of this but.

 

[dangerousdave]

Sydney subbies has an under 85s comp. Only 6 teams play in it though.

When I played at Lindfield a few years ago the u85's filled a great niche between a second colts team, and a 5th grade team, we had good numbers but not enough for both, games were on a Tuesday night so everybody could still backup/play with the main grades on Saturday, and isn't playing much more fun than training?

Playing at Petersham now we could really do with the same thing for some of the leftover colts and 5th grade players, who will inevitably get frustrated with a lack of game time and many will be never seen again. But we don't have a second ground that could be used on a Tuesday so it would be pretty difficult to organise.

In regards to using subbies as a bellwether it seems that clubs have their ups and downs... Lindfield went up to 1st Div in 2010 but in 2012 they are struggling not to get relegated from 2nd Div. Petersham dominated 3rd Div last year with enough players for a 5ths, 6ths and colts to boot, still doing well this year but I think it would not end well if we got promoted again. Luckily Balmain has an entire backline of retired Super rugby players so there is little chance of that.

It would really help if there was a way to make sure that all the extra players got some game time, otherwise they just end up dissapearing...

 

[It is what it is]

Like others, I wish the ARU could communicate what success looks like for our game at various levels.
Growth needs to measured by quality as well as quantity.
As an example, Starbucks grew rapidly and then closed thousands of store, so growth for growth sake doesn't cut it for me.
Nature also teaches us a valuable lesson......plants that grow the healthiest, receive regular nourishment & pruning.

I'd like to see the ARU declare what its priorities are and what success looks like for each.
I don't want them to BS me by declaring that the ARU's goal for next year is for the Wallabies to win every test/trophy, the Sevens to win the World Series, the U/20's to win...., the Aust Schoolboys to win, The Women's team to...blah blah blah.

I want some clarity on some specific performance goals for 2013.
As examples;
- The Wallabies winning the Bledisloe Cup back from NZ is our main priority over all other series.
- The Wallabies will retain their No 2 ranking at year's end.
- Our Sevens team will finish in the Top 6 but more importantly, provide a minimum of 2 new Wallaby players to the senior squad.
- A decision will be made on the viability of a 3rd Tier competition by FEB 1st and if positive, the structure and design be readied for implementation for season 2014.
- The Australian U/20 team will undertake a minimum 3 match international trial series in preparation for the WC and be place within the Top 4 teams at that tournament.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ash]

Regarding Subbies... Well, Balmain has a certain ex-Waratah,ex-Wallaby, and ex-Sydney Rooster (guess who?) running around for them in the backs, so I suspect they are also flush with cash and have a few on their payroll.

I haven't been around this year, but it's the usual for UNSW as far as I know - have had no trouble in fielding the 4 grades and 1 colts with the occasionaly 5th grade side (and they definitely aren't winning everything - in first grade they got spanked by a certain Cross angry team...but then, apparently this Cross angry team are spanking all comers in first grade).

 

[Willus]

I was discussing an issue similar to this with people that I work with, it's probably taking a few steps back and it might be a rather contentious point but nevertheless what we spoke about was a self-defeating attitude that rugby has, that is brought about by the following:

- Rugby is a game that is typically deemed to be "snobbish" by a lot of other groups, for example my colleague stated how there is the notion that we don't want certain groups to be a part of the game, case in point: League players wanting to try to ply their trade in the 15-man code.
- A lack of proper coverage within the nation, AFL and NRL have free coverage but rugby doesn't. This REALLY hurts the popularity of rugby as it isn't as freely accessible to all households.
- There seems to be poor marketing of the game, I hardly EVER see ads for rugby on TV (granted I hardly ever watch TV but that highlights my point even further). If I had to count, I'd probably see about 3/4 times the number of advertisements for league and AFL than I do for rugby. This is also linked to the point above, but a lack of coverage shouldn't mean a lack of exposure to the game as you can see plenty of players from other codes either endorsing a product or in some stupid advert. Whatever happened to adverts such as these two?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Like others, I wish the ARU could communicate what success looks like for our game at various levels.
Growth needs to measured by quality as well as quantity.

..cut.....

I want some clarity on some specific performance goals for 2013.
As examples;
- The Wallabies winning the Bledisloe Cup back from NZ is our main priority over all other series.
- The Wallabies will retain their No 2 ranking at year's end.
- Our Sevens team will finish in the Top 6 but more importantly, provide a minimum of 2 new Wallaby players to the senior squad.
- A decision will be made on the viability of a 3rd Tier competition by FEB 1st and if positive, the structure and design be readied for implementation for season 2014.
- The Australian U/20 team will undertake a minimum 3 match international trial series in preparation for the WC and be place within the Top 4 teams at that tournament.

Any thoughts?

If you have specific goals and objectives articulated in the manner you have indicated, then it is patently obvious whether they have been achieved or not.

Herein lies the problem, if it is obvious that targets have not been achieved, then the stakeholders (that is us) will demand (rightly) to know why these haven't been achieved and why didn't the CEO do something earlier to ensure that the targets were achieved. The buck stops with the boss!

If you couch your objectives in waffle and unmeasurable mumbo jumbo, then you can spin your way out of becoming accountable for not achieving the targets. You get to stay in your job, along with all your "mates".

Management 101 dictates the former approach with specific and measurable objectives.
Executive Survival 501 dictates the latter approach.

 

[Aussie D]

I know on the Central Coast (NSW) that the code is struggling with half the clubs failing to field a 3rd grade team this year. Back in the mid-90s there was a 4th grade competition. Most junior grades only have 3 or 4 teams at most and some clubs only have 3 junior teams in total. IMHO there is not enough done to promote the code in the off season (in my vicinity) and there does not seem to be a coordinated effort to grow the game. Do other people know of any strategies to grow the number of junior teams (not clubs - grow the exisiting ones first before looking to expand) in their vicinity?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

According to the most recent Annual report (2008) from NSWJRU on their web site player numbers have grown since 2003:

Year 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003
Total Players - SJRU 11168 10675 10358 9936 10402 9158
Total Players - CJRU 8269 8033 8109 7747 7570 5872
Total Players 19437 18708 18467 17683 17972 15030

Most growth appears to be in the ranks within CJRU

source:http://www.nswjuniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/NSWJRU_AR_2008.pdf

 

[Bruce Ross]

Sydney subbies has an under 85s comp. Only 6 teams play in it though.

Very wise restriction in my opinion. Anyone in their late 80s should be in a rocking chair instead of packing into scrums. Of course I could be wrong. Teams representing retirement homes could be a source of numbers growth for JO'N.
.

 

[Bruce Ross]

According to the most recent Annual report (2008) from NSWJRU on their web site

I'm impressed by the fact that the NSWJRU does not rush to post unaudited figures on its website. I would far sooner wait a while to see accurate numbers that I have confidence in than prematurely released ones. This refusal to be rushed is what distinguishes rugby in this state at all levels. It is a major reason for our consistent success.

Thank you, HJ, for posting this information. I am now confident that our junior body is grooming the sort of Board members who could some decades hence be adequate replacements for Messers [preferred spelling] Zemancheff and Petersen in the senior ranks.
.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Bruce,
The ARU has not only put in place a pathway to Gold for the players, but it appears to have established a pathway to the real Gold for its administrators which is up and running through its affiliates and their junior affiliates.

Real evidence that ARU can multi-task.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce,
The ARU has not only put in place a pathway to Gold for the players, but it appears to have established a pathway to the real Gold for its administrators which is up and running through its affiliates and their junior affiliates.

Real evidence that ARU can multi-task.

You've picked up on our grand strategy, HJ. No wonder the other codes are always looking over their shoulders at us. It's a modern variant of the old fable which can be titled, "The Tortoise and the Three Hares." Of course we have more than a few nervous nellies who think our tortoise is spending too much time sleeping by the side of the road while the hares have raced out of sight.
.

 

[Lindommer]

It was only, what, six or seven years ago the Sydney premiership clubs turned out five grades and four colts sides each. Now it's four grade and three colts with quite a few clubs (about five) struggling to meet their quota of seven teams.

Schools and junior rugby? Up and down, probably up in juniors and down in schools. To my mind the challenge is to make junior rugby in under 15s, 16s and 17s stronger.

 

[It is what it is]

Bruce,
The ARU has not only put in place a pathway to Gold for the players, but it appears to have established a pathway to the real Gold for its administrators which is up and running through its affiliates and their junior affiliates.

Real evidence that ARU can multi-task.

Not sure if it's still the case today, but in years gone by many clubs got rid of officials they didn't like by promoting them onto the Sydney Rugby Union Board, who in turn got rid of some of them to the NSWRU who in turn sent some of them to the ARU......that's how some people became ARU Board members.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Do other people know of any strategies to grow the number of junior teams (not clubs - grow the exisiting ones first before looking to expand) in their vicinity?

My belief on this Aussie D is to go to the local primary & high schools & have a Rugby advertisement (for central coast junior Rugby) in their weekly newsletter (most schools have these). Have one email & contact phone no. for one person fielding all kids interested, that way it is easier to list how many are going to each club & whether some kids will need to be directed to other clubs (due to lack of numbers). If clubs go about it in an individual way they may only get say 4 players for one age group then tell them there is no team - essentially Rugby loses them. But if it is all organised through one centralised contact they are in a better position to move them to another club if needed. It def requires someone who loves Rugby & isnt blind sighted by the connection they have to their own club.

I would use the same general advertisement in the local & suburban Newspapers. Flyers of the same inclination on the notice boards in local shopping malls. In addition schools have bulletin boards too that can be used.

Going into schools & organising Rugby coaching clinics would be good. Contacting the Super Rugby franchises or/& the ARU to see if local products like Matt Hodgeson and Adam Ashley-Cooper (& others whose names I can't remember right now) to come along & hold such clinics & talk of their rise to the Wallabies would be good (including players at the Super Rugby level). It is worth a shot because these sort of clinics have been done in the past I can't see why the CC shouldn't get some either.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Not sure if it's still the case today, but in years gone by many clubs got rid of officials they didn't like by promoting them onto the Sydney Rugby Union Board, who in turn got rid of some of them to the NSWRU who in turn sent some of them to the ARU..that's how some people became ARU Board members.

Is that you, Julian? This information which you have so indiscreetly disclosed, Iiwii, is potentially much more damaging to our national interest than Wikileaking cables sent by drunken diplomats making observations about foreign government officials. What if this got into the hands of the enemy? You can imagine the excitement at All Blacks HQ discovering the secret of Australian rugby's international domination. "Promote all your dead wood upstairs? How devilishly clever of them."
.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

SJRU have some updated player figures from their 2011 report. They have experienced an enormous growth of 85 registrations since 2010. That being said there are about 43 registerd players in the Under 16's that are "registrations of convenience" and these boys are not playing any Village club footy.

Under 5 (2010) 407 - (2011) 453 : Difference + 46
Under 6 (2010) 579 - (2011) 597 : Difference + 18
Under 7 (2010) 854 - (2011) 783 : Difference -71
Under 8 (2010) 1033 - (2011) 987 : Difference -46
Under 9 (2010) 1063 - (2011) 1127 : Difference + 64
Under 10 (2010) 1246 - (2011) 1257 : Difference + 11
Under 11 (2010) 1274 - (2011) 1268 : Difference -6
Under 12 (2010) 1272 - (2011) 1196: Difference -76
Under 13 (2010) 1029 - (2011) 1123 : Difference + 94
Under 14 (2010) 974 - (2011) 1004 : Difference + 30
Under 15 (2010) 830 - (2011) 835 : Difference + 5
Under 16 (2010) 692 - (2011) 732 : Difference + 40
Under 17 (2010) 425 - (2011) 407 : Difference -18
Under 18 (2010) 205 - (2011) 199: Difference -6
TOTAL (2010) 11883 - (2011) 11968 : Difference + 85

Of the 11968 registered players in 2011, 6545 were Northern Zone, 2790 in Southern Zone and 2633 in Western Zone.

The oft quoted massive drop off in numbers due to the impact of kids entering the Schools system at Under 13 (year 7 for most) does not appear to be as big as it is portrayed:
2010 Under 12 ->2011 Under 13 cohort only lost 149 players.
2010 under 13 -> 2011 Under 14 cohort lost 25 players.

Lindommer is right about the need for a strong Under 15's to Opens. By these figures, these necessary player numbers are hopefully playing in Schools not with SJRU, otherwise we are in deep faecal material. There are only 2173 SJRU registrations in Lindommer's identified target group.

The Engadine Junior Soccer club has more registered players than that.

 

[Bruce Ross]

SJRU have some updated player figures from their 2011 report. They have experienced an enormous growth of 85 registrations since 2010. That being said there are about 43 registerd players in the Under 16's that are "registrations of convenience" and these boys are not playing any Village club footy.


Under 11 - (2011) 1268 :
Under 12 - (2011) 1196:
Under 13 - (2011) 1123 :
Under 14 - (2011) 1004 :
Under 15 - (2011) 835 :
Under 16 - (2011) 732 :
Under 17 - (2011) 407 :
Under 18 - (2011) 199:

Thank you, HJ, for unearthing this information. As a former Federal Treasurer famously said: "What a beautiful set of numbers." Anyone of a statistical bent would appreciate the symmetry of such monotonically declining player registrations from Under 11s to Under 18s.

Extrapolating from these figures I think it very probable that SJRU also has an Under 19 competition. It's just that it has no players.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

It would be interesting to find out the total number of kids playing rugby at each of the age groups.

Private school rugby takes up some of the slack of declining player numbers as kids get older.

 

[wamberal]

The advent of professionalism might have had the effect of making the game less attractive for the average joe at the club level. If I were leaving school now, I would be less likely to want to play club rugby, because it is far more competitive, lots of semi-professionals, and a fair scattering of full-time professionals, all doing a lot more training than I would be interested in committing to.