NSW AAGPS 2019

[ItsNotPink]

RA definitely relies on rugby schools to nurture and produce the next batch of rugby stars, but they have no say in what goes on. For example, if a prominent rugby school changes headmasters and he/she decides to introduce AFL to the school sporting curriculum, RA has no control over this decision. By introducing AFL, young students who always played rugby, are given another option and potentially lost to rugby forever. RA cannot change that decision. So they are at the mercy of rugby loving school hierarchies.

Up & Under, you make some very good points but I think you are being too generous in your assessment. Australian rugby administrators have been asleep at the wheel for years - investing next to nothing in junior rugby and expecting the very capable schools to do it all for them. This worked in the past because all they had to do was pick up the players when they left school, and there were plenty of them. Now the numbers are not looking so great, with boys leaving the code at an alarming rate with almost no mitigation from the official bodies.
(I'm sure someone will tell me if this assessment is too harsh.)

True, the rugby administrators do not run the schools, but neither does the AFL and they seem to be doing much better than rugby.
On the positive side, the recently established Gen Blue programs and improved representative programs have created a pathway for talented schoolboy rugby players, but if you don't make the final cut, they really couldn't care less about you. It's too little too late in my opinion.

I coached and refereed junior rugby union for many years and can confirm that a lot of junior club players also play for their school and give up club, either when their school rugby commitments become too great or when they lose interest and start playing something else (or nothing).

And I have to say, I am concerned where this is all heading. If we want to peer into the crystal ball, sadly there are plenty of examples of established sports that have lost ground in competition with new and exciting alternatives. Participation drops significantly; competition decreases; elite performances are affected; crowd interest diminishes and ultimately sponsorship disappears and the sport becomes a shadow of its former self. Let's hope that rugby can avoid that fate.

So yes, focus on improving junior club rugby by all means, but that is only one part of a potential solution.

 

[Chip kick]

Up & Under, you make some very good points but I think you are being too generous in your assessment. Australian rugby administrators have been asleep at the wheel for years - investing next to nothing in junior rugby and expecting the very capable schools to do it all for them. This worked in the past because all they had to do was pick up the players when they left school, and there were plenty of them. Now the numbers are not looking so great, with boys leaving the code at an alarming rate with almost no mitigation from the official bodies.
(I'm sure someone will tell me if this assessment is too harsh.)

True, the rugby administrators do not run the schools, but neither does the AFL and they seem to be doing much better than rugby.
On the positive side, the recently established Gen Blue programs and improved representative programs have created a pathway for talented schoolboy rugby players, but if you don't make the final cut, they really couldn't care less about you. It's too little too late in my opinion.

I coached and refereed junior rugby union for many years and can confirm that a lot of junior club players also play for their school and give up club, either when their school rugby commitments become too great or when they lose interest and start playing something else (or nothing).

And I have to say, I am concerned where this is all heading. If we want to peer into the crystal ball, sadly there are plenty of examples of established sports that have lost ground in competition with new and exciting alternatives. Participation drops significantly; competition decreases; elite performances are affected; crowd interest diminishes and ultimately sponsorship disappears and the sport becomes a shadow of its former self. Let's hope that rugby can avoid that fate.

So yes, focus on improving junior club rugby by all means, but that is only one part of a potential solution.

Its definitely a grass roots issue have a look at the participation rates in Oz VS other countries. Even Japan and italy have more players at u13's LEVEL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

 

[Loose Carry]

Can you explain why they pick 2ND Reserves before 1ST Reserves ? Just interested to understand the strategy.

I appreciate that there is contention over this, however, in speaking with selectors today, they confirm that the 1st XV are selected first, then 2nd XV, then Firsts reserves and then Seconds reserves. It appears that selectors can not even agree!

Either way - there are strict rules that govern the carnival to ensure that players get good game time. Every player, including reserves, must play 60 minutes across the week unless they are permanently out injured. Additionally, every single player must be in the starting lineup for at least one game.

 

[Chip kick]

Club rugby is definitely the way to go, as Rugby Australia has no control over school rugby.

RA definitely relies on rugby schools to nurture and produce the next batch of rugby stars, but they have no say in what goes on. For example, if a prominent rugby school changes headmasters and he/she decides to introduce AFL to the school sporting curriculum, RA has no control over this decision. By introducing AFL, young students who always played rugby, are given another option and potentially lost to rugby forever. RA cannot change that decision. So they are at the mercy of rugby loving school hierarchies.

I played in a very strong CHS competition at school. A mid-week comp which was equally as strong as the weekend GPS competition. Playing against tough, physical and uncompromising schools like Cleveland St, Matraville, Randwick BHS, JJ Cahill, North Sydney Boys, South Sydney BHS. Most of these boys played league on the weekends, but enjoyed playing rugby for their schools. These are the type of boys that Australian Rugby needs, but as B&W states, sadly that horse has bolted. Back in the 70's and 80's, CHS regularly defeated GPS in the combined rep fixtures, providing the majority of the players in the schoolboy teams.

However, with club rugby, RA has full control over what goes on. Competition structure, training, development, promotion etc. This is where all their energies should be placed. They are not only nurturing and developing players from rugby schools who back up and play for their club on a Sunday, but more importantly, targeting those players that don't attend rugby schools and only have club rugby as their one opportunity to play the game.

It's not rocket science. You provide a wider net, you have more players to choose from.

Also, kids first start to play rugby at club and I would argue that the level of coaching is better until the 16s and above.

 

[Quick Hands]

Also, kids first start to play rugby at club and I would argue that the level of coaching is better until the 16s and above.

With isolated exceptions, I agree.

 

[Phil Johnson]

Hey I was wondering if anyone here knew how to get onto rugbynews.net.au without a damn subscription! I just want to like a single article https://rugbynews.net.au/nsw-school...-in-revamped-australian-schools-championship/
can anybody help?

Cheers, Phil

 

[One eyed pirate]

Junior (and professional) Rugby union is in a dire position. The quality is much higher in clubland vs schools for soccer, cricket, basketball, athletics, swimming......all except rugby, which shows the lack of attention/laziness of the ARU. If folau is successful, the ARU will have 0 money but it’s worse than that....qantas won’t be around much longer and imagine the difficulty finding sponsors now. Also, Fox sports May reduce/cut rugby and other sports. Maybe a financial disaster in the sport is what’s required for change. I have spent some time coaching in junior club land. There are a lot of good people in junior rugby but I would suggest that the Shute shield clubs need to take control of all the disparate junior feeder clubs. I don’t know much about how rugby league is operated but it appears the major clubs is where the big income and expense occurs. So I’m the northern beaches for example, junior rugby players go to either Manly or Warringah, there are 6-8 teams in each age group, instead of playing for the 1-2 teams available at Manly, Seaforth, Collaroy, Harbord, Manly, Narrabeen, I’m forgetting others.

 

[ItsNotPink]

Hey I was wondering if anyone here knew how to get onto rugbynews.net.au without a damn subscription! I just want to like a single article https://rugbynews.net.au/nsw-school...-in-revamped-australian-schools-championship/
can anybody help?

Cheers, Phil

Cannot help with rugby news but there is a whole of information on the rugby schools web site www.schoolsrugby.com.au

 

[Black & White]

Hello Chip Kick

The fact that Italy and Japan have more U13s playing the game is warning for Rugby Australia, that they are failing and failing badly as sport administrators. We should put Raylene Castle on bonus system. The stronger the game gets, the more she gets paid.

Our game suffers from a lack of strategic vision at grass roots level. In this regard, think of Rugby as a house, if the basic foundations are falling apart, the house is going to collapse. We need to spend more money, on the Schools and Club juniors ( Up skilling Coaches would be my priority as well as marketing the game to the Public Australia wide) . Otherwise, Schoolboy Rugby simply becomes a breeding ground for league to poach our players at their leisure.

 

[ItsNotPink]

Hello Chip Kick

The fact that Italy and Japan have more U13s playing the game is warning for Rugby Australia, that they are failing and failing badly as sport administrators. We should put Raylene Castle on bonus system. The stronger the game gets, the more she gets paid.

Our game suffers from a lack of strategic vision at grass roots level. In this regard, think of Rugby as a house, if the basic foundations are falling apart, the house is going to collapse. We need to spend more money, on the Schools and Club juniors ( Up skilling Coaches would be my priority as well as marketing the game to the Public Australia wide) . Otherwise, Schoolboy Rugby simply becomes a breeding ground for league to poach our players at their leisure.

Black & White you are exactly right. Vision is key, as you have suggested and funding is critical. As I have previously noted, a number of sports have seen diminishing participation and have lost revenue which in turn directly impacts their ability to fund grass roots development. The complexity is that the problem is not just one for Rugby Australia, but also for the NSWJRU, SJRU, CJRU and related bodies. While there are lots of people working hard in these organisations, and new initiatives under development to attract more kids to rugby, the fundamental problem remains - fewer kids are playing rugby and staying in rugby. Full stop.

 

[Chip kick]

Hello Chip Kick

The fact that Italy and Japan have more U13s playing the game is warning for Rugby Australia, that they are failing and failing badly as sport administrators. We should put Raylene Castle on bonus system. The stronger the game gets, the more she gets paid.

Our game suffers from a lack of strategic vision at grass roots level. In this regard, think of Rugby as a house, if the basic foundations are falling apart, the house is going to collapse. We need to spend more money, on the Schools and Club juniors ( Up skilling Coaches would be my priority as well as marketing the game to the Public Australia wide) . Otherwise, Schoolboy Rugby simply becomes a breeding ground for league to poach our players at their leisure.

Absolutely, investing in coaching would be a great start. With technology booming in the sport there are so many ways to increase knowledge. Coaching usually starts with Fathers who are passionate, but it shouldn't end there RA should encourage or invest in coaching mentors to come to training.
I think as well Rugby has to go back to tackling from U6's. I have noticed that kids are far less likely to get injured playing rugby/league when tackling up until about the u12's. Young kids need to be taught the correct techniques from an earlier age. League has proven it works.
And one last thing that would make the whole experience more enjoyable and improve participation is refereeing. I have seen some of the worst refereeing at U14s club level this year. So bad that it caused an issue with the SJRU who sent out the standard powerpoint slide. This is the bit that really annoys me, as much as we could blame a referee for being one eyed , behind the play and past it, it is the responsibility of the organisation to ensure this doesn't happen as it detracts from the game. At 14 you have been playing rugby for 8 years you know the rules and you know when they are not being adhered to correctly. RA / SJRU need to make sure that the experience at 14 is not a negative one because of referee. I could find a penalty at every breakdown, we don't need to make kids choose other sports because of bad referee's, who either should have retired or should be refereeing a U8's game instead. I know they are hard to find but some accountability in this department may improve the performance as well,

 

[One eyed pirate]

...something to make us rugby people even more fearful is that AFL is pumping money into the Sydney and Brisbane private rugby schools to promote AFL. The Sydney school that I'm associated has now started accepting plenty of cash from the AFL and I assume other gps/cas schools are similiar targets. I would like to sound more positive about rugby but if the ARU is relying on schools for the development of junior rugby then the outlook for rugby appears very ro#ted to me. Then there's the incompetence of the school system. The people running the GPS/CAS competitions appear to be similiar to the ARU, ignorant to problems and slow to move. I'm not associated with Shore but I know that the current year 12 co hort have seen their first xv win 1 game of rugby over their entire time in high school. This is partly due to AFL growing in the school, full time rowers and lack of success with recruitment. I would also argue that the blind eye to recruitment of players is also putting kids off the sport. There are only 5 competitive schools. At the professional level, if I was an ARU contracted player (and some are contracted for years), I would be concerned that my employer was not going to be able to afford to pay my wages (losing fox sports contract, losing qantas, finding new sponsors, folau's $10m). The other thing that I have noticed is happening is "all year sports". Rugby isnt just competing with soccer, AFL and league. Junior cricket, basketball, swimming and athletics are now pushing harder for all year participation, especially if the child has some talent. I love rugby but its like watching a sinking ship.

 

[Number 7]

.This is partly due to AFL growing in the school, full time rowers and lack of success with recruitment. .

There are many reasons for the ongoing lack of success by Shore at rugby but AFL and rowing have little to do with it.
1. AFL has shrunk from 4 teams to 3 this year with a number of senior boys returning to rugby.
2. There is no such thing as full time rowing. There are plenty of boys from the 1st and 2nd viii’s playing rugby at a high level.

Plus it remains one of the few schools with more rugby teams than soccer teams.

 

[ItsNotPink]

There are many reasons for the ongoing lack of success by Shore at rugby but AFL and rowing have little to do with it.
1. AFL has shrunk from 4 teams to 3 this year with a number of senior boys returning to rugby.
2. There is no such thing as full time rowing. There are plenty of boys from the 1st and 2nd viii’s playing rugby at a high level.

Plus it remains one of the few schools with more rugby teams than soccer teams.

I agree, Number 7. I think that Shore is improving rugby strength overall, despite some disappointing early results from the 1st XV.

One Eyed Pirate makes a very good observation however around "all year sports". It used to be the case that all GPS boys played their summer sport, then all boys played rugby, then some did athletics, but now there are a significant number of boys that ONLY play basketball the whole year, or ONLY do athletics and cross country the whole year. When the GPS season is over they play club and rep for the remainder of the year.

 

[One eyed pirate]

I am not disrespecting Shore rugby. They field 5-6 teams in each age group and 8-9 teams in opens and excluding the first Xv results win about 40% of their games. It’s a good rugby school outside the performances of first xv. AFL started at Shore in 2014 with 1 team and 25 players. I wasn’t aware the team numbers had gone from 4 to 3 between 2018 and 2019. But I know there were 85-90 players and 4 teams last year. If AFL players have fallen in 2019 then as a rugby man, Im glad if those boys went to rugby. But there is no doubt that AFL is growing at Shore following the school accepting money from the AFL.
Full time rower = rowers who book themselves into cross country at school over the winter and row at club.
The main point is that the ARU is mostly leaving the development of junior rugby players to these types of schools (who play 7-8 games pa?) but the AFL (and other factors mentioned) are putting pressure on rugby participation at these schools. The frustrating thing is that what I’m describing has been going on for a long time now and the ARU appear to be happy to just watch it happen. Any of you involved in junior club rugby this year will know the problems all clubs are having with the sjru scheduling -its been a joke!

 

[Joker]

Plus it remains one of the few schools with more rugby teams than soccer teams.

The gap is closing though
31 Rugby
26 Football

 

[Number 7]

I am not disrespecting Shore rugby.

I certainly didn't take your post as disrespectful (and I hope mine didnt seem too defensive). My response stems from the amount of times I have been asked by parents from other schools whether Shore rows all year round as if it is an accepted fact. My older boy rows for the school and wanted to row for a club in year 10. The school actively discouraged him from doing so, citing work load concerns. Whilst I know some boys do row in winter my own conversations with the rowing coaches points towards a pretty conservative approach to the off season. They dont facilitate club rowing, nor do they tell him what sport he should do in winter. And long may that continue.

The anecdotal feedback from some of the Shore parents in the AFL program is that the schools competition is p***weak (I paraphrase) and they would prefer their kids to play club AFL. My neighbours boy (who is at Shore) is switching to Rugby next year because of this reason and he has at least one mate doing the same. However, the strength of the competition could quickly change with the facilitation of the sport by the well funded AFL, as you rightly point out.

Im personally more annoyed that the AFL turned up to Wenona and they got 80+ girls playing in the first year. Theres not a single mention of Rugby 7's at the school which is huge a missed opportunity given female participation is the fastest growing area of the sport.

 

[Chip kick]

I am not disrespecting Shore rugby. They field 5-6 teams in each age group and 8-9 teams in opens and excluding the first Xv results win about 40% of their games. It’s a good rugby school outside the performances of first xv. AFL started at Shore in 2014 with 1 team and 25 players. I wasn’t aware the team numbers had gone from 4 to 3 between 2018 and 2019. But I know there were 85-90 players and 4 teams last year. If AFL players have fallen in 2019 then as a rugby man, Im glad if those boys went to rugby. But there is no doubt that AFL is growing at Shore following the school accepting money from the AFL.
Full time rower = rowers who book themselves into cross country at school over the winter and row at club.
The main point is that the ARU is mostly leaving the development of junior rugby players to these types of schools (who play 7-8 games pa?) but the AFL (and other factors mentioned) are putting pressure on rugby participation at these schools. The frustrating thing is that what I’m describing has been going on for a long time now and the ARU appear to be happy to just watch it happen. Any of you involved in junior club rugby this year will know the problems all clubs are having with the sjru scheduling -its been a joke!

I don't think AFL is a significant issue given the the last game played Shore: 0 – 6 – 6 lost to Waverley 1: 13 – 13 – 91. It is more about scholarships, bursaries or whatever you want to call it. Put 4-5 players in the 1ST xv TEAM that are next level and they would be more than competitive. A couple of speedy backs would improve their point scoring ability and would stop other teams scoring. Except for Joeys that's all that is happening at other schools.

 

[One eyed pirate]

Thats disappointing about Wenona. The ARU have been asleep at the wheel for a long time now. They know that girls participation is growing strongly at club rugby yet miss these opportunities. They are leaving the development of junior rugby players to schools which are now accepting money from the AFL.

On a lighter note, I thought I would share a photo of a Shore cross country runner available from the Shore website....it appears they have the biggest cross country team in the GPS, average height 6'2", average weight 95kg. (i hope I upload this picture ok). I hope this boy chooses rugby instead of cross country next year!

 

[One eyed pirate]

average height 6'2", average weight 95kg. I hope this boy chooses rugby instead of cross country next year!