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NSW Schools Debating 2023

Debater

Herbert Moran (7)
Hi there. If possible would people be able to add an (A) next to affirming schools? I realise I have asked this a lot but not every debate is accounted for, it helps to keep us informed. This is for both Senior A and Senior B, please. Also if anyone has the list of who was in Octo 1 and who was Octo 2 for Senior A and B that would be helpful towards tabulation as it seems to have disappeared. Thanks and good luck to all teams in quarters!
 

The Bait

Allen Oxlade (6)
With octos down, thoughts on who you think will win ISDA ? I’m thinking Aloys v View in Semi and Grammar v Scots with the overall ISDA winner coming from the Aloys v View semi.
 

InterestedBystander

Frank Nicholson (4)
Pymble and Kincoppal had 4 wins. Pymble's margin was apparently 2 against Kincoppal's 0. Pymble therefore finished 3rd and so as D3 should not have debated St Aloysius last night but rather Shore.
The margins have been changed to show Kincoppal with 2 and Pymble with 0. Who can tell whether that is correct? The Final Teams has been adjusted as well, now.
 

Asdyjftj

Frank Nicholson (4)
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but the weight of evidence this year is, sadly, to the contrary.
The below is not directed at you, but I felt your comment offered a good venue for it.

The reality is that a lot of people are making judgments while missing a lot of the picture - to be clear I am not on or related to the ISDA executive/the broader ISDA in any way, but I've heard enough to know that most of the conclusions being reached here are unfounded, made according to arbitrary standards/expectations, and really not productive. You simply cannot fairly assess the situation without access to information that, given the competition involves 11-year-olds, is probably rightly limited to the participant schools. If students, coaches or parents take issue with something (which I think they in some cases rightly can, such as the publication of tallies), they can raise those with their school, who can ventilate those issues with the organisation. That's far more likely to result in appropriate investigation/actually reach those who organise the competition than grandstanding on a forum.

At a minimum its obvious to me that those who are criticising adjudicator quality as if it isn't an inevitable consequence of the current form of the debating world (Easters had half as many participants as pre-covid Easters, most unis are barely able to field more than 2 teams for Australs) aren't really adding anything to the discussion. Sure it's fine to lament, but to what end? I don't think it's a productive message for the kids to receive, it isn't likely to help them grow as debaters, nor encourage them to work as adjudicators when they finish school. Obviously, everyone would prefer a better adj pool, but you can't magic away the consequences of covid.

Those criticising the topics this year really need to take a look at the topics in years past. Or advocate for topic selection. Or just accept the fact that two topics having a 13% team normalised swing is pretty common - look at the motion fairness stats from previous majors. I think most seasoned uni debaters would be happy to accept the senior a/b motion fairness stats at any comp.

Those annoyed that the results weren't published weekly should probably accept that, as per the admin's earlier post, multiple people have made contact about how they felt uncomfortable with the fact that - and manner in which - children's names were being discussed on here. I don't think that is going to push an organisation subject to child protection legislation to be more transparent/open.

I get that people care about high school debating, I do too. I think it's great this thread is as active as it has probably ever been since it was first started. But high school debating competitions are primarily dependent on the goodwill of underpaid high school teachers to organise them. They are not organs of the United Nations. Yet they still have constitutions and proper methods of ensuring accountability. I think that should be enough for people - the expectation that they should either be subject to uninformed criticism or ventilate their internal administrative decisions and affairs is, to me, absurd. Especially when I doubt people are actually forwarding their issues/complaints on to people who could change things. Maybe I've completely missed the mark here, I just think the tone of this thread has taken a particularly negative turn this year, and as someone who debated in, adjudicated, and coached teams in a range of competitions for nearly 15 years, I feel that people have forgotten both how things were and lost sight of what they can reasonably be expected to be. In fairness to everyone here, however, high school debating has always had a problem with appropriate boundaries, probably because people are so invested in it.
 
What goofy and silly turns this forum has taken! Whichever team wins ISDA will be standing on a lot of crushed egos, could be any school really... but obviously, it will only be a certain 4 warrior powerhouse. :D

- Any school but grammar again thanks.
 

Victor Dalrymple

Bob McCowan (2)
The below is not directed at you, but I felt your comment offered a good venue for it.

The reality is that a lot of people are making judgments while missing a lot of the picture - to be clear I am not on or related to the ISDA executive/the broader ISDA in any way, but I've heard enough to know that most of the conclusions being reached here are unfounded, made according to arbitrary standards/expectations, and really not productive. You simply cannot fairly assess the situation without access to information that, given the competition involves 11-year-olds, is probably rightly limited to the participant schools. If students, coaches or parents take issue with something (which I think they in some cases rightly can, such as the publication of tallies), they can raise those with their school, who can ventilate those issues with the organisation. That's far more likely to result in appropriate investigation/actually reach those who organise the competition than grandstanding on a forum.

At a minimum its obvious to me that those who are criticising adjudicator quality as if it isn't an inevitable consequence of the current form of the debating world (Easters had half as many participants as pre-covid Easters, most unis are barely able to field more than 2 teams for Australs) aren't really adding anything to the discussion. Sure it's fine to lament, but to what end? I don't think it's a productive message for the kids to receive, it isn't likely to help them grow as debaters, nor encourage them to work as adjudicators when they finish school. Obviously, everyone would prefer a better adj pool, but you can't magic away the consequences of covid.

Those criticising the topics this year really need to take a look at the topics in years past. Or advocate for topic selection. Or just accept the fact that two topics having a 13% team normalised swing is pretty common - look at the motion fairness stats from previous majors. I think most seasoned uni debaters would be happy to accept the senior a/b motion fairness stats at any comp.

Those annoyed that the results weren't published weekly should probably accept that, as per the admin's earlier post, multiple people have made contact about how they felt uncomfortable with the fact that - and manner in which - children's names were being discussed on here. I don't think that is going to push an organisation subject to child protection legislation to be more transparent/open.

I get that people care about high school debating, I do too. I think it's great this thread is as active as it has probably ever been since it was first started. But high school debating competitions are primarily dependent on the goodwill of underpaid high school teachers to organise them. They are not organs of the United Nations. Yet they still have constitutions and proper methods of ensuring accountability. I think that should be enough for people - the expectation that they should either be subject to uninformed criticism or ventilate their internal administrative decisions and affairs is, to me, absurd. Especially when I doubt people are actually forwarding their issues/complaints on to people who could change things. Maybe I've completely missed the mark here, I just think the tone of this thread has taken a particularly negative turn this year, and as someone who debated in, adjudicated, and coached teams in a range of competitions for nearly 15 years, I feel that people have forgotten both how things were and lost sight of what they can reasonably be expected to be. In fairness to everyone here, however, high school debating has always had a problem with appropriate boundaries, probably because people are so invested in it.
It is true the decline in judge quality has complex causes - but this is not an excuse for the largest schools comp in NSW to do absolutely nothing to address the issue. All you need to do is read the report of the previous CA of ISDA to see a host of proposed solutions to this problem. Exactly 0 of them have been implemented this year.

No these topics are not balanced. Such poor motion balance would be rightly mocked at a uni comp (which is not to say it doesn't happen sometimes).

The lack of published results is a clear problem of poor admin. It makes no sense to suggest its about privacy - the published results do not contain the names of students, nor does the lack of publication seem to have done anything to deter discussion on these forums.

We should of course recognise that it takes a lot of work to succesfully run these comps, and that the job can be difficult. It is also however totally fair to hold ISDA to the standard of previous years.
 

thatWasToSay

Stan Wickham (3)
Returning to the actual debating, this Friday promises to give us a spectacular set of quarter finals. The majority of the schools still in the competition could make a claim to be genuine title contenders imo, making the results very hard to pick, but hopefully producing some fantastic debates.

Aloysius will be the favourites against Cranbrook, but Cranbrook have taken down two higher ranked teams in the last two weeks, so we’ll see if they can continue that streak.

Joeys and Riverview is going to be a great iteration of this rivalry. The traditional strength of view, arguably the historically greatest school in the state, against a resurgent joeys.

This forum seems to think Grammar will breeze past shore, but I’m less certain. This shore team is good and Grammar aren’t as far above them as they usually are. Not sure if you still have ‘upsets’ at the point of a quarter final where all the teams are this good, but if there’s going to be one this Friday, I have a feeling Shore might be able to sneak through.

Finally, the big one, Barker v Scots is another top quality debate. The only two state team speakers in ISDA Senior A facing off to progress to a semi final. The debate of the round and one that could potentially go on to decide this years ISDA champion.
 

The Bait

Allen Oxlade (6)
Returning to the actual debating, this Friday promises to give us a spectacular set of quarter finals. The majority of the schools still in the competition could make a claim to be genuine title contenders imo, making the results very hard to pick, but hopefully producing some fantastic debates.

Aloysius will be the favourites against Cranbrook, but Cranbrook have taken down two higher ranked teams in the last two weeks, so we’ll see if they can continue that streak.

Joeys and Riverview is going to be a great iteration of this rivalry. The traditional strength of view, arguably the historically greatest school in the state, against a resurgent joeys.

This forum seems to think Grammar will breeze past shore, but I’m less certain. This shore team is good and Grammar aren’t as far above them as they usually are. Not sure if you still have ‘upsets’ at the point of a quarter final where all the teams are this good, but if there’s going to be one this Friday, I have a feeling Shore might be able to sneak through.

Finally, the big one, Barker v Scots is another top quality debate. The only two state team speakers in ISDA Senior A facing off to progress to a semi final. The debate of the round and one that could potentially go on to decide this years ISDA champion.
So who are you tipping this week ?
 
Doggies, in.

Morning all, big week of quarter finals and I am here to deliver my sentiments.

Aloysius vs Cranbrook- Apologies to previous commenter 'Lachie' but I'm backing Aloysius, they are the real deal. Aloys win.

Shore VS Grammar- I could definitely see an upset here, hearing big things out of Shore and would love to see a Shore win. Best of luck to both sides. I'm going with Shore.

Barker VS Scots- Big debate, both teams having a state speaker could make this the debate of the round. I'm going with Scots.

The debate of the round in my opinion - Joeys VS Riverview. I think this will be a huge debate, I'm going with View!

Best of luck to all teams.

Doggies, out.
 

The Bait

Allen Oxlade (6)
A few times in previous years I emailed ISDA about apparent tallying mistakes and received gracious 'thank you' emails. This year I twice emailed the CA requesting the results be posted and received no reply. Twice.
Given your intimate knowledge of the debating scene, I am very interested in who you are tipping to win ISDA and why, if you are prepared to share.
 

InterestedBystander

Frank Nicholson (4)
Given your intimate knowledge of the debating scene, I am very interested in who you are tipping to win ISDA and why, if you are prepared to share.
I suspect you jest but, if not, I am an Interested Bystander who does attend ISDA debates but not yet Senior A. Does anyone commenting here attend the (occasional) ISDA Senior A debate?
 

TBoneTerry

Frank Row (1)
I suspect you jest but, if not, I am an Interested Bystander who does attend ISDA debates but not yet Senior A. Does anyone commenting here attend the (occasional) ISDA Senior A debate?
Yeah I’ve seen a bit over the past 2 years. It’s pretty well known who the standout favourite is this year and no I’m not going to reveal who.
 

Aurelius Calterworld

Frank Row (1)
How is the debating looking this season gentlemen?

Debating, at its core, is a multifaceted and intellectually rigorous pursuit that embodies the essence of critical thinking, effective communication, and the pursuit of truth. It encompasses a rich tapestry of skills and principles, weaving together logic, rhetoric, evidence, and persuasive discourse. Debating serves as a vibrant arena where individuals engage in a structured and respectful exchange of ideas, challenging assumptions, defending viewpoints, and seeking to elucidate the complexities of various subjects. Thus, I can singularly amalgamate the physical manifestation that is this forum's relation to NSW-related endeavors. Any thoughts or queries keep me updated gentlemen.
 
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