Reds 2022

[Dean Moriarty]

Didn’t realise Dalgleish was back for UQ, if so it gets a bit complicated. No doubt the Reds would like to see Lynagh playing QPR. Mick would want to pick his best team .

Heard an interesting take on the San Francisco 49’rs Quarterback situation from their GM in the aftermath of their elimination in the NFC Championship game. They had given up a stack to trade up in last year’s draft to select a 20 year old in Trey Lance who had played the least amount of “snaps” in College at his position (Quarterback) in 46 years .

And they had a veteran in Jimmy Garropolo that they have been to a Super Bowl with - but despite the cries of Trey Lance has to play throughout the season otherwise his development would be hampered , the organisations thinking was there was more developmental benefit in having him “sit” more and soak up and absorb in the short term - ahead of him being their starting QB next year

Given the Reds don’t directly control who plays or who plays where in Clubland - you wonder whether there is more value in having the 18 year old stay close to and train with the Match Squad that might accelerate his readiness.

Don’t know if it does or not - Just interesting to note another Pro Sports organisation view on playing / sitting / developing very young and inexperienced “position critical” talent who will ultimately lead your team

 

[RugbyReg]

Not relevant. That comparison makes no sense. There’s no alternative for that young QB. It’s either play NFL or watch and learn.

The best thing Lynagh can do, and all young players, is play rugby. We’re not suggesting Lynagh plays Super Rugby. We’re saying he plays club footy, which is the alternative to not playing Super Rugby.

 

[dru]

On a seperate note - agree it is good to hear Creighton is doing well. 7-8 years ago the Reds seemed to really struggle to help young players reach their potential. Now we seem much better at bringing guys in from the clubs who don’t necessarily have the massive wraps that some on the past got, but turning them into dependable players.

I think this is a huge turnaround, since roughly when Thorn started his involvement with the developing squad and it has continued since. Massive value to the Reds (and Aus rugby).

BUT, if the effectiveness of this development is to be tested by players transitioning successfully to Super in the specific role, I'm not convinced that we have yet seen the Reds demonstrate they can develop a 10.

Not relevant. That comparison makes no sense. There’s no alternative for that young QB. It’s either play NFL or watch and learn.

The best thing Lynagh can do, and all young players, is play rugby. We’re not suggesting Lynagh plays Super Rugby. We’re saying he plays club footy, which is the alternative to not playing Super Rugby.

IMO this is the sort of thinking required. Hopefully with additional skills training specific to the role, and head space mentoring around how to guide a game. For now the Lynagh scenario is very promising. Hopefully similar things are happening with the names that have been mentioned as possible 10s or bench utility (including doubling as 10).

 

[Dean Moriarty]

Not relevant. That comparison makes no sense. There’s no alternative for that young QB. It’s either play NFL or watch and learn.

The best thing Lynagh can do, and all young players, is play rugby. We’re not suggesting Lynagh plays Super Rugby. We’re saying he plays club footy, which is the alternative to not playing Super Rugby.

Gee is it? Well that’s all well and good. Except for the part where the Reds have zero influence to what a Club Coach wants to do with his team to y’know ….win games.

This is now the third occasion I have posted that James Dalgleish is back at UQ, noting that on the first occasion you posted a laughing emoji.

UQ have another Premiership winning 10/12 in Brad Twidale. Australian 7’s rep and the multiple premiership winning Con Foley is back in the midfield - having played a fair bit of 12. Down the line they seem to like the Reggies big boy 12 who figures to be part of the mix as a ball carrying weapon against tired defenses.

You’d think the young guy would get opportunity off the bench at UQ but you sort of got to question exactly what type of time , against what quality of opposition in game blow outs and in what quality of “game critical” situations - IE : when the game is on the line.

Isn’t that sort of the idea? That he be playing in games | game situations that matter in QPR to get him ready for the next level up ?

The Reds aren’t in direct control of that but what they can control in an 18 year old's development is if he is in and around their squad as an alternate idea. I’m not saying I agree with that idea either. It’s just an alternate thought process as opposed to the linear - one way of thinking which anything short of gets scoffed by option cutters.

Anyway …if he ends up starting over James Dalgleish and Brad Twidale this year in QPR it won’t be because it’s because the Reds say so it will be because a decision by the UQ Coaching staff that he is immediately better than both these players and can increase chances immediately to win games. Would be great for both UQ and Reds Rugby, and most importantly - for the young man himself , if this was the case.

 

[TSR]

Completely get where you are coming from Dru - but I will play devils advocate here (if for no other reason than for some discussion while I wait for my work computer to update).

With regards to developing a 10, it is worth noting that O’Connor wasn’t considered a 10 when he got here. I know that some will argue that he still isn’t - but he just isn’t a traditional 10 and he has some way to go to be a top 10 at international level. But given his recent award, at Super Level at least he is an excellent 10.

With regards to developing a 10 through the Pathway I think this is a bit untested in the Thorn regime. Definitely they’ve struggled to recruit/retain a 10. They didn’t successfully develop Stewart as a 10 - but I feel it was probably the wrong spot for him anyway, so maybe that is more success

But I figure In probably distorting the meaning of your post. In terms of taking a young 10 and bringing him through to being top level it’s been a long time between drinks.

 

[TSR]

Interesting comment Dean - I understood the Reds actually had a great deal of influence in how their players are used. To my understanding there was generally pretty good co-operation between the clubs and the Reds about giving the Reds players the time they need playing at the level and in the position requested. Is that your assumption on how things run, or do you know for sure? Not trying to be inflammatory. Genuinely interested as what you are saying is contrary to what I’d heard in the past.

 

[Dean Moriarty]

I’m probably not the guy to ask TSR. It might be better to ask a Coach that has the profile of a guy like Mick Heenan or Grant Andersen at Bond and then get a perspective of another QPR Head Coach who is wired differently. And I’m in no way suggesting that anyone is purposefully obstructive or resentful to wishes that may be made known upstream.

What I am saying is that I do think it is fair and reasonable to suggest that every Club and Coach is wired differently and don’t operate on precisely the same agenda or are all good soldiers there to 100% serve the Reds best interests | optimal outcomes.

That’s all I’m saying. And on a Club like UQ that already has that personnel in place you have to question exactly what type of accelerated opportunity would exist if a young player already isn’t 100% a better option than the guy in front of him.

When Carter Gordon was at Wests who was he replacing ? The answer was Cooper Whiteside who was 1 or 2 years older than him and went to 15. No disrespect but he wasn’t a multiple premiership winning player with overseas experience. See what I mean ?

 

[PhilClinton]

When Thorn moved Nasser from prop to hooker, my understanding was this was communicated with Heenan and he did the same.

If clubs are amicable enough to have players change positions per the desire of the professional team, you'd think they'd be open to having certain players on the field, if it was in the best interests of the player.

I will note though, that Heenan hasn't always taken the 'professional coach knows best' approach. A long long time ago, Heenan rocked the blue and green down at Yoku. A young Will Genia returned from the Reds to Premier Grade and Heenan elected to play him off the bench and keep the incumbent Premier Grade halfback in the side.

Genia went on to leave GPS the following season (and Heenan left for UQ not long after that).

 

[RugbyReg]

Gee is it? Well that’s all well and good. Except for the part where the Reds have zero influence to what a Club Coach wants to do with his team to y’know ….win games.

Except for the requirement that all fully contracted players must player Premier Squad (or at least not colts).

 

[RugbyReg]

This is now the third occasion I have posted that James Dalgleish is back at UQ, noting that on the first occasion you posted a laughing emoji.

Why so desperate for a reaction on Dalgleish? A capable player who never even cut it at NRC level. Don't forget Lynagh has overseas experience too. Who knows what Heenen will do. I know you don't. He may use Dalgleish like he used Moore last year. As a pure finisher. Regardless, the whole conversation should be in the QPR thread. Not here.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I guess that ends the debate lol...

 

[LeCheese]

On a seperate note - agree it is good to hear Creighton is doing well. 7-8 years ago the Reds seemed to really struggle to help young players reach their potential. Now we seem much better at bringing guys in from the clubs who don’t necessarily have the massive wraps that some on the past got, but turning them into dependable players.

The Thorn Effect™

 

[dru]

Completely get where you are coming from Dru - but I will play devils advocate here (if for no other reason than for some discussion while I wait for my work computer to update).

With regards to developing a 10, it is worth noting that O’Connor wasn’t considered a 10 when he got here. I know that some will argue that he still isn’t - but he just isn’t a traditional 10 and he has some way to go to be a top 10 at international level. But given his recent award, at Super Level at least he is an excellent 10.

With regards to developing a 10 through the Pathway I think this is a bit untested in the Thorn regime. Definitely they’ve struggled to recruit/retain a 10. They didn’t successfully develop Stewart as a 10 - but I feel it was probably the wrong spot for him anyway, so maybe that is more success

But I figure In probably distorting the meaning of your post. In terms of taking a young 10 and bringing him through to being top level it’s been a long time between drinks.

Not a distortion at all, think we are on the same thread. JOC (James O'Connor) had a desire to 10 much younger if I recall correctly - some joshing between Wuade and JOC (James O'Connor). The fact he needed to slot there, apparently unintended, speaks to our 10 development. He has been great.

It is an interesting role to develop. Really hopefully on the potential future with Lynagh.

 

[Adam84]

Gee is it? Well that’s all well and good. Except for the part where the Reds have zero influence to what a Club Coach wants to do with his team to y’know ….win games.

that’s not entirely true..

 

[Dean Moriarty]

that’s not entirely true..

That’s fair. Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be around total control over their preferred outcomes.

 

[LeCheese]

Have heard repeatedly since trans-Tasman that Thorn is set on Petaia at 15. Assuming he remains fit and healthy (and in decent form), that's where he'll be for the bulk of the season.

To follow up on this, looks like it's a goer

Flair Jordan ready for liftoff at fullback | Latest Rugby News | RUGBY.com.au

The Jordan Petaia experiment at fullback is a goer with the Queensland Reds set to trial the bold move on Saturday night behind closed doors.

www.rugby.com.au

 

[Dean Moriarty]

Why so desperate for a reaction on Dalgleish? A capable player who never even cut it at NRC level. Don't forget Lynagh has overseas experience too. Who knows what Heenen will do. I know you don't. He may use Dalgleish like he used Moore last year. As a pure finisher. Regardless, the whole conversation should be in the QPR thread. Not here.

I’m not desperate for a Dalgleish reaction and it does relate to a Reds consideration in what they would prefer for one of their contracted players. I never professed to know what Heenan will do so thanks for unnecessarily reminding me that I don’t know what he will do.

You seem to be pushing a thought that it is automatic he will be playing meaningful game relevant QPR Prem minutes. But you don’t know that he will anymore than I do that he won’t. I actually hope he does FWIW. But it is at least a reasonable thought that a guy who delivered 3 x QPR premierships with another guy who was his Coach would have a valued relationship and that perhaps he didn’t come home to play a Stephen Moore role when he highly likely has a lot more Rugby left in his tank than what Stephen Moore had (relative to his position)

It’s premature to know for sure - it will be what it will be But if it doesn’t happen to the Reds satisfaction it sort of reminds me why Kalani Thomas went from Souths to UQ

 

[Adam84]

That’s fair. Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be around total control over their preferred outcomes.

Which comes down to relationship management, something Reds/Thorn has done pretty well in recent years. Especially clubs like UQ which benefit from the Reds players more then others.

 

[Dean Moriarty]

When Thorn moved Nasser from prop to hooker, my understanding was this was communicated with Heenan and he did the same.

If clubs are amicable enough to have players change positions per the desire of the professional team, you'd think they'd be open to having certain players on the field, if it was in the best interests of the player.

I will note though, that Heenan hasn't always taken the 'professional coach knows best' approach. A long long time ago, Heenan rocked the blue and green down at Yoku. A young Will Genia returned from the Reds to Premier Grade and Heenan elected to play him off the bench and keep the incumbent Premier Grade halfback in the side.

Genia went on to leave GPS the following season (and Heenan left for UQ not long after that).

This obviously made sense for both organisations and both Coaches given the prior positional vacuum at the position , and , what had already been produced with some evidence at Super Rugby level - that he was unlikely to make it as a Super Rugby Tight Head and they had other plans at the spot. But it seems as though he was well thought of enough to stay in their plans - but at a different position.

 

[Adam84]

Is it wrong of me to be disappointed that the guys who stayed home for their physical development don't look like the hulk?