RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

[RuckinGoodStats]

Just to advise I'm putting together a piece on Bryce's ref stats for 2011. I've coded everyone of his game from Super15 through to RWC. I'm sending it to Gaggar and if he likes it, up it goes. Look out for it Thursday-ish. Will do a seperate analysis on his game where he ref'ed the Wallabies. Haven't looked at the number yet so going in with an open mind and let the number speak for themselves...

Anyone think it worth doing the analysis?

 

[Ash]

I think so. My biggest beefs with Bryce are as follows:

- Fails to ref the breakdown (this is my biggest gripe, if I was a coach I'd tell my team to get out there, smash the ruck and then lay all over the ball until Bryce says something, which may be never).
- Make incomprehensible decisions, often blowing nothing penalties, or not giving blatant ones.
- Is often inconsistent within the game.
- Tends to miss quite a bit (not necessary penalties, mainly knock-ons and other stuff in dynamic play) due to poor positioning.

I think he is in the lower class of current international refs. However, I also think he is not biased, and is normally equally terrible to both teams. Unfortunately, his decisions are often game-impacting, but it's something both teams must deal with.

 

[spikhaza]

I would love for you to do those stats ruckingood! Possibly compare them to Wayne Barnes / Craig Joubert?

 

[Scotty]

Failing to referee the breakdown is not intentionally biased but it does play into the hands of some teams more than others. If teams want to play with the ball in hand it is difficult to do so under Lawrence as tacklers can lie all over the ball and others play it on the ground.

His style will tend to help the likes of England, Argentina, south Africa when they play their normal style of world cup rugby.

 

[Scotty]

You have to remember at the last 2 world cups, the 2 semi refs did not referee quarter finals. This still leaves referees such as Wayne Barnes, Alain Rolland and Jonathan Kaplan who can still be selected.

The sh side should end up with barnes in the semi, while the nh with Kaplan. Unless nz put a lot of pressure on the irb regarding barnes.

 

[Richo]

What happened was Mauro Bergamasco, who had been cheap-shotting and threatening to lose it entirely, lost in entirely, swung out of Cian Healy from the edge of a maul and planted three punches into the face, straight in front of the AR. Healy, to his immense credit, didn't react when targeted - again - and the penalty was reversed. Mauro should have been binned, no ifs, buts or maybes.

Thanks, Thomond. I did see that scuffle, but didn't realize what the calls were...

 

[kiap]

Ranked by referees at RugbyRefs:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/content.php?216-Referee-Rankings-af ter-the-Pool-Stages

 

[Bowside]

That rating just confirms what many on here already believe - that joubert, poite, barne and ownes are the best going round. And bryce is shit.

 

[spikhaza]

Dunno about Poite but that looks pretty accurate to me.

Have a look at what it said under it, truer words about the Aus appointment have not been spoken:

We know the Quarter Final appointments come out today, and if our members are correct the four referees that should be in the middle for these these will be Poite, Joubert, Barnes with a choice between Owens & Kaplan as the 4th/5th place (depending on what table you look at).

Some people have speculated that as the Qtr final draw has split the hemispheres there will be 2 NH Refs and 2 SH refs. If this is the case Kaplan will get the nod ahead of Owens.

The interesting part will be if the iRB put the Refs in their own hemisphere, or the other hemisphere. There are 2 ways to look at this, if the referee does the game from their hemisphere, the game may flow better because the teams will be used to that style of play, however it may also bring in (totally unfounded) allegations of bias.

To put my money where my mouth is I think that if we are right in our ranks the appointments will be:

NZ v Argentina - Kaplan
Eng v Fra - Joubert
South Africa v Australia - Barnes
Ireland v Wales - Poite

However, I don't believe we will have been rating exactly like the iRB, and my prediction for actual appointments are:

NZ v Argentina - Barnes
Eng v Fra - Rolland
South Africa v Australia - Lawrence
Ireland v Wales - Joubert

 

[Scotty]

I'd love to know what the actual selection process is. It doesn't seem logical at all.

 

[Lee Grant]

Somebody else rates the minimalist Poite - love it. Amongst other things, I find his halting English a plus.

And the two youngest ahead of everybody else but the Frenchman? Correctamundo.

I'd have Rolland in 4th ahead of Owens (who is a smokey) and Pearson 9th, but that would not be far from my list.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A smokey?


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=21.277614,-157.829982

 

[Mank]

Failing to referee the breakdown is not intentionally biased but it does play into the hands of some teams more than others. If teams want to play with the ball in hand it is difficult to do so under Lawrence as tacklers can lie all over the ball and others play it on the ground.

His style will tend to help the likes of England, Argentina, south Africa when they play their normal style of world cup rugby.

This is an interesting direction. Let's get one thing straight up front, all teams will attempt to slow opposition ball down by some means. However, I think that most people have an incorrect perception of South African means. SA cheat like all teams, but they do not cheat very well, mostly because they lack rugby smarts in general, preferring to rely on physical domination. Part of this physical domination includes massive harassment at rucks. This may look like intentional lying on the ball with bodies (from both sides) scattered, but it's not the same thing. For me New Zealand are the prime example of smart cheating at the moment. There defense is good, but it's much easier to defend when your opposition do not get quality ball at times when they really wanted it. Australia also play very smart rugby and I think spoil more effectively than SA do, although through different means.

So you may have a point, albeit by accident, about Bryce's style suiting SA more, purely because SA tend to get penalised more at rucks because they are less smart about spoiling. If Bryce doesn't penalise as easily then sure, it might suit SA, but by the same token, a smarter team can just get away with more.

My instinct tells me SA have not been terribly successful under Bryce Lawerence and I would like to see some stats on this.

 

[Scarfman]

Ranked by referees at RugbyRefs:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/content.php?216-Referee-Rankings-af ter-the-Pool-Stages

Amazing how close that list is to what I'm (and others here) are thinking. Although I admit I'm still learning about Poite.

For reffing the Wallabies, I like Barnes and Owens. They seem to have an emphasis on fair play and that suits us. Joubert is very much a "reward dominance" kind of ref, and that's sometimes a problem when that dominance is achieved through foul means (to take a random example, say, by props putting their hands on the ground).

 

[Lee Grant]

A smokey?


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=21.277614,-157.829982

Don't tell me Diamond Head is erupting again.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Don't tell me Diamond Head is erupting again.

What is a smokey
Owens has a number of defining characteristics and I'm wondering which one this refers to?

 

[Braveheart81]

I'd have thought a smokey means a darkhorse or similar.

 

[Jay]

I'd have thought a smokey means a darkhorse or similar.

I suspect it's some sort of comment on Owens' sexuality? Smokey & the Bandit or some such.

But if I'm reading something into that, I apologise in advance. I have something of a habit of finding double entendres in fairly innocent phrases.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Just to advise I'm putting together a piece on Bryce's ref stats for 2011. I've coded everyone of his game from Super15 through to RWC. I'm sending it to Gaggar and if he likes it, up it goes. Look out for it Thursday-ish. Will do a seperate analysis on his game where he ref'ed the Wallabies. Haven't looked at the number yet so going in with an open mind and let the number speak for themselves...

Anyone think it worth doing the analysis?

Depends what stats you are going to pull together and what you are going to benchmark them against.

 

[Tangawizi]

I would certainly be keen to see a video clip of the penalties he has blown against us so far in the World Cup and a discussion on the "correctness" of his decisions.