RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

[antipodean]

Odd - all the Kiwis agree. Wonder why? Because he actually penalises you! Do you also wonder why he's on the outer with POB?

A bit rich coming from a country that universally loathes Kaplan. I'll tell you why Kiwis think Dickinson is a shit ref; apart from him being shit, because they've had the misfortune to have him refereee them at Test level. We're reasonably astute when it comes to refs; actively telling the world how crap Bryce was prior to having other nations whine about him. Most of us prefer to have South Africans like Mark Lawrence and Craig Joubert in charge. You'd have a hard time finding anyone who would extol the virtues of Dickinson.

Everyone moans about Lawrence, but I like how he refs (sometimes) he just stays out of the game, and isn't an all about me ref.

The reason Bryce doesn't blow his whistle is because he gets hopelessly lost in the general melee around the ruck - especially if the situation is dynamic. He is probably the worst referee at letting knock ons, etc go until the play moves away into more open general play or a scrum. It's not because he prefers a flowing game, but because he either genuinely doesn't know what the fuck is going on, or these instances create some temporary paralysis; where the events are unfolding so quickly by the time he assembles the firing synapses to determine something wasn't quite right, another 10 things have happened.

 

[Worldcupnut]

Ok, I'll start.

Why is Kaplan there and not Mark Lawrence!?

I used to be Kaplan's No1 knocker ( his yellow of Elsom in 2006 goes down in infamy ) but after his two outstanding games Reds v Blues this year I reckon he's really come of age and can see illegal, offside ruck play in black and white. If it's an AB/Wallaby final I feel he may be the best option for a fair outcome.

 

[Braveheart81]

As a Waratahs fan, Kaplan shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any of our games.

I think our record with him is now 2 wins and 13 losses. Given that the team's normal winning percentage is much higher than that, that is just ridiculous.

 

[Worldcupnut]

One thing I can't understand is how Joubert escapes ridicule. That last game in Eden park was one of the worst reffing displays I've seen. Stu Dickinson gets pilloried for missing knock ons, what about those 2 Joubert missed? Both blatant, both crucial.

 

[Jnor]

A bit rich coming from a country that universally loathes Kaplan. I'll tell you why Kiwis think Dickinson is a shit ref; apart from him being shit, because they've had the misfortune to have him refereee them at Test level. We're reasonably astute when it comes to refs; actively telling the world how crap Bryce was prior to having other nations whine about him. Most of us prefer to have South Africans like Mark Lawrence and Craig Joubert in charge. You'd have a hard time finding anyone who would extol the virtues of Dickinson.
The reason Bryce doesn't blow his whistle is because he gets hopelessly lost in the general melee around the ruck - especially if the situation is dynamic. He is probably the worst referee at letting knock ons, etc go until the play moves away into more open general play or a scrum. It's not because he prefers a flowing game, but because he either genuinely doesn't know what the fuck is going on, or these instances create some temporary paralysis; where the events are unfolding so quickly by the time he assembles the firing synapses to determine something wasn't quite right, another 10 things have happened.

Not that I disagree with what you're saying re: Bryce but I genuinely wonder if he is actually that shit how has he gone so far? Is the dearth of alternatives that serious? Is he ok at Super level and hasn't handled the step up?

Also, inb4 someone says 'Dickheadson'

 

[Worldcupnut]

What's happened to Yellow cards? I remenber not so long ago that they were a regular whim of refs. It's a shame in a way that they're such a powerful weapon. Many a match has been won or lost because of a yellow handed out on a flimsy pretext but yet, there seems now to be no deterrent to the professional foul in the red zone. Hmmmm....I can just see a yellow coming out of the blue at a crucial time and really upsetting one nations fans ( I hope it's not me, my poor telly couldn't take it ).

 

[Jay]

One thing I can't understand is how Joubert escapes ridicule. That last game in Eden park was one of the worst reffing displays I've seen. Stu Dickinson gets pilloried for missing knock ons, what about those 2 Joubert missed? Both blatant, both crucial.

Cause Dickinson does it constantly. Every ref has a bad game from time to time, but the likes of Stu & Bryce rarely have good games.

By the way, what are the specific knock-ons you're talking about? The Read one I'm assuming (which I still can't tell if it's a knock on after watching the replay about 20 times), what's the other one?

 

[antipodean]

Not that I disagree with what you're saying re: Bryce but I genuinely wonder if he is actually that shit how has he gone so far? Is the dearth of alternatives that serious? Is he ok at Super level and hasn't handled the step up?

I don't think he's ok at Super level either, it's just less noticeable due to Super Rugby being more helter skelter and less like real rugby (by NH interpretation). His rise in New Zealand rugby has, in my humble opinion, everything to do with nepotism.

Also, inb4 someone says 'Dickheadson'

That's implied.

Contrary to some, I'm not a fan of Poite either, who looks lost on the field. I don't mind a referee who knows what is going on and applies a degreee of materiality to decision making; i.e. it had no effect. But this can only apply at set piece/ ruck, e.g:
Ball not quite straight but the defending team didn't compete, continue.
Players driving over ruck going off their feet and sealing off the ball, but the defender was blown out, ball presented and ruck no longer contested, etc.

Unfortunately crap refs tend to focus on these things because that's how they are judged. So they pick up on the inconsequential and are completely oblivious to knock ons, off sides etc, which actually ruin the game. He might tick all the boxes as per the KPIs, but he ruins games.

 

[DPK]

I agree antipodean. The best refs have an ability to focus on the bigger picture and the real impact of players actions.

 

[tblackadder]

good to see matty goddard still involved

 

[Worldcupnut]

Jay, if I have to tell you're never gonna know. Think first half five metres out.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I'm not a Stu fan at all but to give him & other referees a break I think the lack of input or the wrong input from "Assistant Referees" is pretty shocking at times. Maybe some of them still think they are just "touchies" & dont realise that they are supposed to help the main ref on the park. The Saders/Reds game earlier in the year Stu had a shocker but probably wouldve been even less of a shocker had the assistant ref's of pulled the finger out of their arse & actually helped inform Stu of the forward passes, not straight throws, knock ons, etc. The man cant be everywhere & have eyes that cover 360 degs.

Also an earlier Eire game I believe it was a screw up at the end that handed Eire defeat, I was like a lot of people blaming Kaplan but later realised it was an assistant ref that dropped the ball on that one. Same deal in Super Rugby when in SA a Tah got sent off and the main ref asking the assistant whether he should be sent or not - the assistant ref didnt seem to know what decision to make, he decided it should be a send off but didnt sound very convincing.

 

[Jay]

Jay, if I have to tell you're never gonna know. Think first half five metres out.

Dude, lay off the snark. I've only ever seen highlights of the first half (had gastro & slept through it) so it's an honest question. I don't remember a knock in either AB first half tries, but like I said - I've only seen highlights.

 

[Jay]

Also an earlier Eire game I believe it was a screw up at the end that handed Eire defeat, I was like a lot of people blaming Kaplan but later realised it was an assistant ref that dropped the ball on that one.

It was both of them. Kaplan's question "Was it the same ball used" was irrelevant as the lineout was taken in the wrong place, and he didn't actually listen to what his assistant was trying to tell him.

 

[Hawko]

1.A bit rich coming from a country that universally loathes Kaplan. 2. I'll tell you why Kiwis think Dickinson is a shit ref; apart from him being shit, because they've had the misfortune to have him refereee them at Test level. We're reasonably astute when it comes to refs; actively telling the world how crap Bryce was prior to having other nations whine about him. Most of us prefer to have South Africans like Mark Lawrence and Craig Joubert in charge. You'd have a hard time finding anyone who would extol the virtues of Dickinson.

The reason Bryce doesn't blow his whistle is because he gets hopelessly lost in the general melee around the ruck - especially if the situation is dynamic. He is probably the worst referee at letting knock ons, etc go until the play moves away into more open general play or a scrum. It's not because he prefers a flowing game, but because he either genuinely doesn't know what the fuck is going on, or these instances create some temporary paralysis; where the events are unfolding so quickly by the time he assembles the firing synapses to determine something wasn't quite right, another 10 things have happened.

1. Kaplan is so widely criticised in Australia because his refereeing is, by statistical analysis of his record, biased against Australian teams. Australia in internationals and the Waratahs in Super rugby, win less than 20% of their games when he referees. Both teams have win/loss records over 50% with all other referees. Contrary to the myth, statistics don't lie. The raw data is unchallengeable. He also tends to make big errors (second ball for quick lineout throws) but often he will get small detail decisions right that most other refs don't. I'd have him at the cup, but ineligible to referee Australian games, and he certainly should be limited to pool matches.

2.Your second sentence regarding Dickenson is just assertions. No argument or reason is given. So let me provide you with a reason that at least can be discussed. Dickenson is very strict at ruck time. The way all NZ teams (International and Super) play at the ruck is to cause general mayhem, sometimes legally, sometimes not. When a referee is strict on the ruck, it diadvantages NZ teams because it affects the way that they generally achieve dominance. Dickenson's other great attribute is that he is very good at defusing incidents where people want to play dirty. He does this by having zero tolerance for dirty play and excessive aggression so it gets defused before it becomes a massive problem. Players get penalised and carded. That is not to say that he is the world's best referee, he is not. But he is the best for matches that might blow up (eg Lions v SA) and he is certainly better than some of those chosen for the WC.

The most glaring omission from the WC squad is Mark Lawrence. With Barnes he is in the top two tournament referees with Joubert having slipped from first to third lately. That a referee who does not even understand the basic protocols on VR's has been given preference says the selection process is flawed. That Mark Lawrence is not even an AR is testament to the murky politics that suffuses international refereeing.

 

[Top Bloke]

"..That a referee who does not even understand the basic protocols on VR's has been given preference says the selection process is flawed.." Hawko - the RWC Ref appointments were done months ago, I guess you are referring to George Clancy?

 

[AngrySeahorse]

It was both of them. Kaplan's question "Was it the same ball used" was irrelevant as the lineout was taken in the wrong place, and he didn't actually listen to what his assistant was trying to tell him.

Ah, thats right. Comedy of errors. Hope we dont see these kinds of howlers in the RWC.

 

[Hawko]

"..That a referee who does not even understand the basic protocols on VR's has been given preference says the selection process is flawed.." Hawko - the RWC Ref appointments were done months ago, I guess you are referring to George Clancy?

What are you trying to say? That Clancy knew the protocols a few months ago and just forgot? I think that's a stretch. My point is that Lawrence was then and is now a way better ref than Clancy. There is so much daylight between them you can hardly see Clancy in the distance.

I'm speculating, but I think Lawrence missed out because there were three well regarded SA refs who should have been chosen, POB insisted Kaplan was going and someone else complained that SA couldn't have three refs, it was over the quota. So Lawrence got dropped.

 

[Mr Doug]

I have only one request....either have refs who have played in the 'tight five', or do away with "C...T...H...E" (which takes 6 to 8 seconds), and is a blight on our game ........ Please no stupid comments from members who've never had their head in a scrum, because frankly, you haven't got a clue!! "Crouch/engage", or" crouch/hold/engage" is enough, so why do we play "under- 19s" rules at this level?!

 

[naza]

One thing I can't understand is how Joubert escapes ridicule. That last game in Eden park was one of the worst reffing displays I've seen. Stu Dickinson gets pilloried for missing knock ons, what about those 2 Joubert missed? Both blatant, both crucial.

He robbed the Wallabies at Twickenham last year too...some unforgiveably bad stuff. He gets away with it because he lets the physically dominant team do whatever they want.