RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

[Mank]

1. I don't know if Contepomi was more that 1 metre off-side but he pretty clearly off-side. Contepomi himself has even said he was off-side. It wasn't a border-line call, to most watching the game it was obvious.

Would you mind elaborating on this? I only got one angle on it but rewatched the incident multiple times, and there was no way I could tell when the scrumhalf had his hands on the ball. Contepomi started in line with the other defenders, so looked onside (as much as modern defences can be said to be onside) to start with. He obviously made a call and bolted out, but whether he did this early or not I just can't tell. I'd be quite interested if you could show a freeze frame image showing he started early if you say he was "clearly off-side". Not interested in opinion here, just evidence.

Then, quite apart from the above, we come to Barnes positioning. At that particular moment he had his back towards Contepomi, policing the actual tackle area. I don't expect referees to have eyes in the back of their heads, and if he'd been facing Contempomi he may have missed some other infringement.

 

[Jay]

Would you mind elaborating on this? I only got one angle on it but rewatched the incident multiple times, and there was no way I could tell when the scrumhalf had his hands on the ball. Contepomi started in line with the other defenders, so looked onside (as much as modern defences can be said to be onside) to start with. He obviously made a call and bolted out, but whether he did this early or not I just can't tell. I'd be quite interested if you could show a freeze frame image showing he started early if you say he was "clearly off-side". Not interested in opinion here, just evidence.

Then, quite apart from the above, we come to Barnes positioning. At that particular moment he had his back towards Contepomi, policing the actual tackle area. I don't expect referees to have eyes in the back of their heads, and if he'd been facing Contempomi he may have missed some other infringement.

Is the ball out there? It looks to be, given the halfback is already looking at where he's passing and appears to have raised his hands off the deck. And Contepomi looks onside there - or if he is in front, it's a matter of centimetres.

 

[Top Bloke]

...
Then, quite apart from the above, we come to Barnes positioning. At that particular moment he had his back towards Contepomi, policing the actual tackle area. I don't expect referees to have eyes in the back of their heads, and if he'd been facing Contempomi he may have missed some other infringement.

Yes difficult for Barnes to be checking in front & behind but you would expect the ARs to be checking & making a call to him. Although as the pic shows Barnes is in the chariot position which generally gives a ref the best view of both the ruck and the defensive line.

 

[RugbyInterest]

The referees are wired up with the Assistants Referees on the sideline. We have seen before that if there was such an obvious offside then one of the ARs would have alerted the referee and the penalty would have come. Perhaps suggests that the offside was not as obvious and only has gained some degree of noteriety because of Contempomi's comments. There are countless examples of when players think they are on side when they are not and vice versa. Does this make Contempomi a good judge?

 

[antipodean]

Is the ball out there? It looks to be, given the halfback is already looking at where he's passing and appears to have raised his hands off the deck. And Contepomi looks onside there - or if he is in front, it's a matter of centimetres.

It's very hard to tell from the one frame, but just to clarify one misconception; hands on doesn't mean the ball is out.

The only element that made me believe Contepomi was off-side was the amount he was in front of his team-mates. FWIW, Parks should have been a bit deeper.

 

[Jay]

It's very hard to tell from the one frame, but just to clarify one misconception; hands on doesn't mean the ball is out.

The only element that made me believe Contepomi was off-side was the amount he was in front of his team-mates. FWIW, Parks should have been a bit deeper.

I know hands on doesn't mean ball is out, but from that photo it appears (though you can't be 100% certain) that the ball is clear of the ruck - the halfback appears to be (very early) in the act of passing. Regardless, the photo shows that it wasn't a cut and dried wrong call, as the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick seemed to think.

It's similar to the Kieran Read knock on call (or lack of) in Bledisloe 1 this year. Loads of people would have you believe that was a monumental cock up by the ref & assistants and that they had to be blind to have missed it. But I've watched that replay in slow-motion 20 or 30 times and I'm still not 100% sure whether Read got a hand on it or if he only hit AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s arms. And if you can't tell from multiple slow-mo replays, at the very least that makes it an extremely difficult call for the ref so even if they did get it wrong, it's an understandable call.

 

[antipodean]

I know hands on doesn't mean ball is out, but from that photo it appears (though you can't be 100% certain) that the ball is clear of the ruck - the halfback appears to be (very early) in the act of passing. Regardless, the photo shows that it wasn't a cut and dried wrong call, as the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick seemed to think.

Certainly, although for argument's sake I'd be interested in seeing a few frames either side. It appears that Barnes' positioning is as good as you could hope for without getting in the way of the defensive line and the assistant referee didn't call it.

It's similar to the Kieran Read knock on call (or lack of) in Bledisloe 1 this year. Loads of people would have you believe that was a monumental cock up by the ref & assistants and that they had to be blind to have missed it. But I've watched that replay in slow-motion 20 or 30 times and I'm still not 100% sure whether Read got a hand on it or if he only hit AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s arms. And if you can't tell from multiple slow-mo replays, at the very least that makes it an extremely difficult call for the ref so even if they did get it wrong, it's an understandable call.

I've watched it a few times as well and I'm undecided if Read touched it. You are spot on about the difference between real time and the ability to watch the play ad nauseam in slow motion.

Gut instinct in my experience is seldom wrong and if I was refereeing that game I'd probably have called Contepomi off side simply because he isn't a noted sprinter and was well in advance of his team mates. Granted that's not the best indicator, but it's a good one.

 

[Nusadan]

Dan Parks was at a bad angle to the posts anyway, and he should have tried to set up another couple of phases to bring him closer to the posts...

 

[Lee Grant]

I know hands on doesn't mean ball is out, but from that photo it appears (though you can't be 100% certain) that the ball is clear of the ruck - the halfback appears to be (very early) in the act of passing. Regardless, the photo shows that it wasn't a cut and dried wrong call, as the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick seemed to think.

That's how I saw it on freeze frame and in another thread I said it was the right call. At worst, it is what you say: not a "cut and dried" wrong call. As I mentioned on the other thread: hands on is not ball out, but referees usually invoke that when loosies come around the side as a scrummie is fishing the ball out, not in the case where Blair already had hands on and was looking around at Parks.

Get Barnes in a court as the accused and his brief would get expert opinion to confirm that.

Smart Arsed Brief: "Is it a reasonable assumption that the ball was out of the ruck at that time?"

Prosecution: "Objection, leading the witness."

SAB": "Can you at least say that a reasonable referee could think it was probably out?" Got him there.

As to whether Contepomi was behind last feet before this happened he would ask:

SAB: "Was not Mr. Contepomi's left foot behind last feet before this happened?" After objection: "Could you say with certainty, that his left foot was in front of last feet?" Got him there too.

SAB: "And, Mr. Expert Witness, where do we judge the alleged offsideness of Mr. Contepomi: where his body was or where his right foot was when it landed after his first step?"

Expert Witness: "Err?"

Judge: "Prosecution?"

Prosecution: "No fucking idea Judge."

SAB: "So supposing for the sake of argument that Mr Contepomi's left foot was onside when stationary as in Exhibit A, and that he could not be offside, not that he was, until his right foot landed, could not Mr.Blair have swung his arms further towards Mr. Parks, indicating that the ball was out of the ruck before Mr. Contepomi landed his right foot?"

Prosecution: "Objection your Honour, Australian scrum halves like George Gregan and Luke Burgess are well known for having their hands on the ball, looking around and not passing for 10 seconds."

Judge: "I believe, Mr Blair is Scottish. Mr Prosecutor."

Prosecution (triumphant) - "You can't be sure Your Honour: Nathan Hines and Compass Parks are both Aussies and they play for Scotland."

Judge: "Compass Parks?"

Prosecution (showing off now): "He played for Southern Districts, West Harbour and Eastern Suburbs in Sydney, Your Honour."

Judge: "Not Northern Suburbs as well?"

Prosecution: "He had to draw the line somewhere, Your Honour."

SAB: "Irrelevant your Honour, and I have it on good authority that Mr. Blair was born in Edinburgh, anyway." (He had just googled it on Wikipedia.)

Prosecution: "Fuck. But Your Honour, Mr. Contepomi, himself thought he was offside."

SAB: "Delayed reaction from concussion Your Honour and he was taking pain killers because of injuries in an earlier match."

Judge: "Mr. Barnes, it has not been established that Mr. Contepomi was offside before he rushed towards Mr. Parks, nor has it been established that the ball was still in the ruck in Exhibit A. Nor is the law clear on whether Mr. Contepomi would have been offside when his body moved, or not until his right foot landed, in which case the ball, in the hands of Mr. Blair, probably moved closer to Mr. Parks indicating that it was probably out of the ruck at the time Mr. Contepomi's right foot landed. You may leave the sin bin. Case closed.

SAB to Prosecutor afterwards: "Silly bastard. Why didn't you show the court a video of the forward pass that Barnes missed in the 2007 Quarter Final?"

Prosecutor: "Oh Shit."
.

 

[elementfreak]

Great summary elementfreak, good work mate. There is a LOT of stuff for ref's to keep an eye on (not only at scrum time) isn't there!!

That was a diluted version of my "checklist" and I have one for every aspect of the game which all need running through in about 1-2 seconds, especially at the tackle.

 

[Mank]

Thanks Jay, not so clear cut as commentators on ITV were making out, if in fact he is offside at all.

 

[Lindommer]

Gold, Lee. You've watched a bit of Perry Mason in your youth, haven't you?

 

[nicobinho]

haha naaa, I think to much Law and Order

 

[thecow]

anyone want to predict who are going to get quarter finals, semis, final?

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Joulbert, Rolland and Barnes have looked pretty good from what I've seen. But thats just a random guess from the games I've watched.

 

[Sully]

I haven't seen much of Joubert but Rolland and Barnes have looked good.

 

[mark_s]

Bryce Lawrence will get a QF.

 

[Lee Grant]

I reckoned before the RWC that the two youngest, Barnes and Joubert were the best of the RWC referees, and have done as well as anybody, but because they are young they may not get the big gig but maybe a QF.

Rolland has been very good but he should not have spoken to players before calling a time out in the France v NZ game when play was so close to the Kiwi goal line. They could ignore that. If so, he got the last Final and like Watson, could get another one, unless Ireland are in it as they could be, but only if they stay healthy.

I rate Poite but I don't think many other people do. Owens is in the mold of POB and the selectors may like his bad moods. A Kiwi will have to get at least a QF so Lawrence may get one or even a SF but not because he is better than others IMO.


I think they'll go for:

QFs: Joubert, Poite, Kaplan, Lawrence

SFs: Owens, Barnes

Final: Rolland


That makes a progression for Barnes to the Final next time.

My choice would be for Barnes to do the Final and Joubert and Poite the Semis

All that supposing that their country doesn't spoil it for them.

 

[spikhaza]

are you kidding me.


My refereeing quarter final team

Wayne Barnes
Nigel Owens
Alain Rolland
Craig Joubert

Semi Finals

Craig Joubert
Wayne Barnes

Final

Wayne Barnes

How anyone on planet earth rates Bryce is a mystery, perhaps they mistook him him for mark, who is an awesome referee and should be only second in the world pecking order to Barnes. It's clear from here that It's line ball and if they were offside then It should have been called by AR, just like the goalposts in the wales game, just like the forward pass in 2007.

Anyway, Bryce has had shocker after shocker this year, he continually misses some really basic stuff like big knock ons etc. His flow of the game is definately not ideal and stops it when it's not required (think every attacking Wallaby ruck that is instantly called a scrum.) He was no good in the super rugby final, no good in durban, no good against Ireland (although Ireland must love him, it favours their put-everyone-to-sleep game plan with his constant stoppages / failure to see basic things i.e. offside.) My big beef with him is that the way he refs means that it's unlikely that a line ball call will decide a game, the side with the muscliest buffest dumbest forward pack will slow things down to a pulp and suffocate the other team with him reffing, and it doesn't get media attention as a result. Wayne Barnes lets a game flow, france make a 40m line break and he's 10m behind and can't see a marginally forward pass, the AR (who was there) misses it and bingo que the death threats from NZ supporters.

Anyway, for those of you who disagree, or want to disagree, heres your opportunity - my ratings of refs:

Spikhaza's 2011 Form guide for referees

Alain Rolland B Good game management and can speak french, penalty party (too many technical penalties) can let him down at times
George Clancy B- As above but with slightly more technical penalties
Romain Poite C poor game control and lacks fluidity and consistancy. Tries hard (as all refs do) but really is at the cup for political reasons
Craig Joubert B+ At times let down in the technical department (for example failure to see that will genia was never released in the lead up to chris ashtons try). At times does not favour the attacking team. If not for this he would be in the A range, as his game management is second to none
Iain Smith B Likes the concept of flow, but lets teams get away with too much in order for flow, which btw stops the flow.
Steve Walsh B+ very close to an A-, inconsistancy is Steve's problem. I loved the way he reffed France V Japan - more of the same please.
Glen Jackson B same as Iain Smith
Vinny Munroe B Unfortunately Vinny hasn't really had the opportunity to prove himself against teams that are out there to manipulate the referee in the test level. He referees good honest Super 15 games where no one is out to suffocate. He does encounter several technical problems though, which leads to teams getting away with things
Chris Pollock B Good in all departments, but not great.
Dave Pearson B+ Dave looks the goods for the future, but we haven't seen enough of him to go out on a limb and say he's brilliant. More tests will allow us a better image of him
Nigel Owens B+ Good all round, at times can get things wrong technically. Man one of my favourite rugby refereeing moments was at loftus last year when he penalized the **** out of teams for going off they're feet. 9 tries in that game.
Jonathan Kaplan B Showed us recently in a super 15 semi final he's up to the standard of big games and making them flow, however in the past decade there has just been way to many crucial game management stuff ups (I've got ten in my head right now) for him to get a B+.
Mark Lawrence A Great all round. It's an absolute mystery why they didn't pick him, and now he's retired internationally. He will be sorely missed, superb management and flow. Not penalty happy but not afraid to give one out either.
Wayne Barnes A See the above. Except they did pick him
Bryce Lawrence C+ OK game management but technically he's a mess and it usually turns to shit by the tenth minute (Durban v africa, Auckland v ireland, Reds v Saders, etc.) Doesn't set the standard early enough in the rucks, they become a shit stain.

TMO's Note It's pretty easy to be a TMO, I could be one if i wanted to, no fitness aspect all you have to do is look at the video and memorize the rules

Matt Goddard A no problems here
Shaun Veldsman B Drew Mitchell disallowed try plus the Israel Dagg Forward pass sorta got me on the wrong side, but other than that the bloke is fine

 

[Braveheart81]

None of the quarter final referees will referee a semi final. A quarter final referee will most likely referee the final.