RWC 2011 - Quarter final 3 : Springbokke v. Wallabies CLOSED

[Godfrey]

I'd be interested to see a Scarfman-style video on Pocock from this game. I'd like to revisit and see how much hysteria is justified and how much is a coping mechanism. In all the media shots at Bryce it's insinuated he missed nothing from South Africa - despite video footage of a repeated eye-gouge being available and a deliberate knockdown in their red zone early in the game which took a great deal of their momentum (called a forward pass at the time).

 

[Chunderstruck]

One thing I find stupid about the saff whinging is that while they believe Pocock should have been penalised a million times hence giving them a million point lead, they don't consider that if Bryce was reffing properly he might have changed his game accordingly. If he'd started getting pinged I'm sure he'd have been smart enough to change style to avoid penalties.

Some of the articles and post coming out are pretty funny, though I did see one article against the tide:
Quit blaming the referee!

 

[Jay]

I'd be interested to see a Scarfman-style video on Pocock from this game. I'd like to revisit and see how much hysteria is justified and how much is a coping mechanism. In all the media shots at Bryce it's insinuated he missed nothing from South Africa - despite video footage of a repeated eye-gouge being available and a deliberate knockdown in their red zone early in the game which took a great deal of their momentum (called a forward pass at the time).

One thing about that knock down - even if you agree that it wasn't a forward pass (which I'm not sure that it wasn't), I don't actually think it was a knock-on, either. It went pretty much sideways.

However, it was about 10 seconds after Lawrence missed Ioane being taken out late by Steyn, so it's all academic.

I think Lawrence's overall style was actually beneficial to the Boks, they thrive on chaos at the breakdown for the most part.

 

[Blue]

Whilst the whinging is over the top, once and ex ref weighs in surely there is something in it?

Andre Watson thinks he screwed up:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5778252/Lawrence-copping-it-from-all-quarters

We can't blame the ref for losing but Lawrence fucked up. Anyone who watched a bit of rugby could see he easily loses control.

I find it a bit rich that Aussies were crying about the Ireland game and now criticize the Saffers for complaining.

Ultimately Bryce Lawrence has been on a slippery slope for some time but he lost it in this game. Big time.

It would always be debatable how many rucks he actually let go. I suspect Aussie fans and Saffer fans will come up with very different numbers!

Having painfully watched the second half again I counted at least five situations where the tackler simply did not let go. Having seen how Joubert and Barnes reffed the breakdown I am 100% sure there would have been more penalties. Of course Pocock would have adapted, The discussion is not just about Pocock. Actually for the most part he arrived and legally contested. The problem was that by that time the tackler had hung on for a second too long making it easier for the guy coming in. That is why the we have the tackler release being enforced in the first place.

I think Aussies contesting the Saffer complaints are being overly sensitive about Pocock. He went for it and wasn't pinged. What was he supposed to do? Tell the ref, hey buddy, I'm getting away with murder here Sir please ping me. He did his job to perfection and we all know that a good part of the 7's job takes place on the wrong side of the law.

On a side note yes maybe if we had Brussow we would have fared a little better but I am not sure about that. The real trick missed by our esteemed coaching staff was not to introduce Alberts earlier in place of Spies with express instructions to clean out like never before. Instead we have Spies standing around like a bloody whimp.

Fuck I am not over it yet. Fuck fuck fuck. We can cry about Lawrence but we lost because for two years our backline has not been coached to attack and ever test in the last two years where we have had 10 and 12 of Steyn and de Villiers we have not scored tries easily. Simple as that. Part blame goes to Matfield also for not instructing the team to set up drop goals from the 65 minute mark where it was plain that we could not get through. Vic will look back at this game with some regret.

So no, don't blame the ref. But he should be brought to task. Do you want Lawrence to ref another test match? Ever? Definitely not.

 

[Blue]

I think Lawrence's overall style was actually beneficial to the Boks, they thrive on chaos at the breakdown for the most part.

No.

 

[Scotty]

A south african ex ref.

 

[Scotty]

Whilst the whinging is over the top, once and ex ref weighs in surely there is something in it?

Andre Watson thinks he screwed up:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5778252/Lawrence-copping-it-from-all-quarters

We can't blame the ref for losing but Lawrence fucked up. Anyone who watched a bit of rugby could see he easily loses control.

I find it a bit rich that Aussies were crying about the Ireland game and now criticize the Saffers for complaining.

Ultimately Bryce Lawrence has been on a slippery slope for some time but he lost it in this game. Big time.

It would always be debatable how many rucks he actually let go. I suspect Aussie fans and Saffer fans will come up with very different numbers!

Having painfully watched the second half again I counted at least five situations where the tackler simply did not let go. Having seen how Joubert and Barnes reffed the breakdown I am 100% sure there would have been more penalties. Of course Pocock would have adapted, The discussion is not just about Pocock. Actually for the most part he arrived and legally contested. The problem was that by that time the tackler had hung on for a second too long making it easier for the guy coming in. That is why the we have the tackler release being enforced in the first place.

I think Aussies contesting the Saffer complaints are being overly sensitive about Pocock. He went for it and wasn't pinged. What was he supposed to do? Tell the ref, hey buddy, I'm getting away with murder here Sir please ping me. He did his job to perfection and we all know that a good part of the 7's job takes place on the wrong side of the law.

On a side note yes maybe if we had Brussow we would have fared a little better but I am not sure about that. The real trick missed by our esteemed coaching staff was not to introduce Alberts earlier in place of Spies with express instructions to clean out like never before. Instead we have Spies standing around like a bloody whimp.

It was clear before the game that Lawrence is a crap ref, and that if it was a close game, whoever lost would have something to complain about.

Yes he lost control. Did he lose control more than any other big game he refs - no. Re-watch the Aus vs Ireland game - it wasn't any better.

You do mention that Pocock competed legally for the ball on many occasions. He could easily have also won more penalties - so the lack of calls went both ways.

Cooper's pass to JOC (James O'Connor) in space getting called forward was a joke. The pass to Lambie actually was forward. Did Schalk release Moore correctly when he made that cover tackle after Beale's bust? FDP standing behind Genia and not getting done for offside another joke. Touchie not seeing Schalk is one of the biggest jokes of all.

There is plenty to whinge about with Lawrence, I agree. I just don't agree that the Wallabies had more calls go their way than the Boks did.

 

[Scotty]

PS The tackler not releasing the tackled player has not been policed properly by any ref (save maybe Barnes) for this whole world cup. For mine they had the balance right, with favour to the attacking team, last year. Since then it has slowly regressed so that now most tacklers don't need to release before going for the ball.

I don't like a game that favours the defensive team.

 

[Jay]

PS The tackler not releasing the tackled player has not been policed properly by any ref (save maybe Barnes) for this whole world cup. For mine they had the balance right, with favour to the attacking team, last year. Since then it has slowly regressed so that now most tacklers don't need to release before going for the ball.

I don't like a game that favours the defensive team.

Yeah, the interpretation has really regressed since last year. Though it's also partly that teams have cottoned on to attacking the ball with the second player to arrive, rather than the tackler.

 

[Cutter]

Whilst the whinging is over the top, once and ex ref weighs in surely there is something in it?

Andre Watson thinks he screwed up:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5778252/Lawrence-copping-it-from-all-quarters

As I said on the previous page when I quoted something similar, Watson is way out of line to criticise a fellow ref in public.

 

[Blue]

PS The tackler not releasing the tackled player has not been policed properly by any ref (save maybe Barnes) for this whole world cup. For mine they had the balance right, with favour to the attacking team, last year. Since then it has slowly regressed so that now most tacklers don't need to release before going for the ball.

I don't like a game that favours the defensive team.

Lawrence did not police to favor the attacking team.

 

[Blue]

As I said on the previous page when I quoted something similar, Watson is way out of line to criticise a fellow ref in public.

Agree.

If the rules had been reversed there would have been as much bleating from Aus fans and observers.

Just two weeks ago there was outrage after the Ireland game.

Can't help but think there's a sniff of hypocrisy in the air.

I think players and former players and refs should keep it shut. I also think Lawrence is useless and didn't help our cause. As much as I think we could have and should have won it anyway.

 

[Jay]

Agree.

If the rules had been reversed there would have been as much bleating from Aus fans and observers.

Just two weeks ago there was outrage after the Ireland game.

Can't help but think there's a sniff of hypocrisy in the air.

I think players and former players and refs should keep it shut. I also think Lawrence is useless and didn't help our cause. As much as I think we could have and should have won it anyway.

Given Watson attracted a fair amount of criticism (mostly from the press & supporters of the winning team) for his effort in the 03 final, I'm surprised he's spoken out on this matter. But then, I suspect that an international ref requires a decent sized ego...

 

[Blue]

It was clear before the game that Lawrence is a crap ref, and that if it was a close game, whoever lost would have something to complain about.

Yes he lost control. Did he lose control more than any other big game he refs - no. Re-watch the Aus vs Ireland game - it wasn't any better.

You do mention that Pocock competed legally for the ball on many occasions. He could easily have also won more penalties - so the lack of calls went both ways.

Cooper's pass to JOC (James O'Connor) in space getting called forward was a joke. The pass to Lambie actually was forward. Did Schalk release Moore correctly when he made that cover tackle after Beale's bust? FDP standing behind Genia and not getting done for offside another joke. Touchie not seeing Schalk is one of the biggest jokes of all.

There is plenty to whinge about with Lawrence, I agree. I just don't agree that the Wallabies had more calls go their way than the Boks did.

We agree to disagree.

 

[Blue]

Given Watson attracted a fair amount of criticism (mostly from the press & supporters of the winning team) for his effort in the 03 final, I'm surprised he's spoken out on this matter. But then, I suspect that an international ref requires a decent sized ego...

Watson strikes me as as bit of an egomaniac with as little but of small man syndrome thrown in. I don't value his opinion.

 

[Brisbok]

As I said on the previous page when I quoted something similar, Watson is way out of line to criticise a fellow ref in public.

Watson is no longer a referee, he is now Manager of Referees for the SARU. If Paddy O'Brien feels the need to come out occassionally and point out, in public, that a referee made mistakes, then why should Andre Watson hold back?

 

[barbarian]

There was a reaction to Bryce after the Australia-Ireland game, but certainly not to the level seen after this game. No-one suggested Bryce cost us the game against Ireland, but there have been plenty of Saffers who have said exactly that about this game. No-one made facebook groups or mocked up images.

And I do agree with Scotty- he missed a lot of things on our side too. Penalty offences like Habana deliberately knocking down a QC (Quade Cooper) pass (which was ruled mystifyingly as a forward pass), or Morne Steyn moving off his line and shouldering Digby Ioane after he had kicked the ball with no-one in front of him. I am not trying to suggest it all evened out, but I certainly don't think Bryce cost SA the game.

Even the ruck infringements went both ways. Sure we had our hands all over the ball, but there were plenty of instances of Saffers diving over or coming from the side to stop us. I can understand a bit of the outrage in SA, but think it is a bit over the top and not comparable to the Aus-Ireland game.

 

[Jay]

There was a reaction to Bryce after the Australia-Ireland game, but certainly not to the level seen after this game. No-one suggested Bryce cost us the game against Ireland, but there have been plenty of Saffers who have said exactly that about this game. No-one made facebook groups or mocked up images.

And I do agree with Scotty- he missed a lot of things on our side too. Penalty offences like Habana deliberately knocking down a QC (Quade Cooper) pass (which was ruled mystifyingly as a forward pass), or Morne Steyn moving off his line and shouldering Digby Ioane after he had kicked the ball with no-one in front of him. I am not trying to suggest it all evened out, but I certainly don't think Bryce cost SA the game.

Even the ruck infringements went both ways. Sure we had our hands all over the ball, but there were plenty of instances of Saffers diving over or coming from the side to stop us. I can understand a bit of the outrage in SA, but think it is a bit over the top and not comparable to the Aus-Ireland game.

Over on the Roar, there were half a dozen articles lamenting Lawrence costing the Wallabies the match in advance...

 

[Richo]

The difference, of course, is that this was a knockout game... and one that RSA had every chance of winning. Emotions are bound to be higher. I reckon we'd have seen a pretty similar response from some Australian quarters if the result had gone the other way.

 

[whatty]

It was clear before the game that Lawrence is a crap ref, and that if it was a close game, whoever lost would have something to complain about.

Well you certainly put enough ammunition before the game if it eventuated.

Yes he was crap to both sides at the breakdown but with 70% possession and the ball constantly slowed down it inhibited quick ball and therefore mostly against the Boks, simple he lost us the game. /rant