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School sporting scholarships/recruitment

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pitbull

Guest
newington have 6 opens rugby teams (and a 7ths that is fielded by yr 12's who want to play 2 games)
joeys have 13
obviously there is going to be double the ability in teams like the 4ths and 3rds.

Admitedly, 1 player is on a scholarship, and another receives a bursary from the old boys union. But it doesnt matter where the other 13 come from to you, does it?

At the end of the day, the 15 boys in that team are not going to care whether one player received this, or another received that, or how the 5ths did that year. There going to remember the premiership that they won.

Scholarships are becoming more and more a part of the gps environment, and to be honest im not worried. Where was apo last year? Gps 3rds. A year at a school that gave him every opportunity to reach his true potential turned him into arguably the best inside centre, for his age, in the country. The 2009 newington team was admitedly alot worse in regards to scholarships, and where did they come? 5th. Nothing can replace the advantage that being a good team gives, and this was evident with the joeys side (until saturday). They truly made something from nothing, and were just unlucky that newington finally clicked when it was there turn to play them.

If someone is scouted with only a year to go then there is the obvious problem that a year may not be sufficient time for them to gel into the schools environment. Newington have put forward a team that, for 13 of them, have been together since year 8. In my opinion, that is the reason they won.
 
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catchpole

Guest
Another interesting point to consider on this thread is the case when a young student is identified by a school or sits for an academic entrance scholarship, at the age of 12-13 in year 7, who is academically gifted as well as a sporting prodigy.

Is this candidate then categorized as a Sports Scholarship holder despite the fact that he is clearly holding a legitimate academic scholarship but continues to contribute to a school's sporting achievements?

I believe that there are sufficient of these students to skew any proposal for legitimizing a scholarship system and create further gray areas for debate or controversy

A workable system would become very complicated and extremely hard to audit?
 

northman91

Frank Nicholson (4)
Having 13 players since yr 8 is most likely why they have won the comp last this year. Whereas last year newington had 13 people make GPS teams and only managed to win 2 comp games. But last year Newington have numerous players who were new to the school and as a result rather than being a champion team they were a team of individuals. Well done to them this year.

Talent wise I rekon that last years team would almost be as good as this years. But last years team failed to mix and failed to deliver several times.

Lets just hope that in the future schools can acknowledge that developing a champion team works so much better than buying a team of talented individuals. And that no sporting scholarships are given out in the future.
 
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baldingwingforward

Guest
Lets just hope that in the future schools can acknowledge that developing a champion team works so much better than buying a team of talented individuals. And that no sporting scholarships are given out in the future.

You are right on the money but certain schools know that the only way that they will be competitive is to "buy" boys in. If they do it early enough the boys have a chance to assimilate into the school and it doesn't look quite so obvious come Opens time. Still pretty obvious though when a team that got pumped say in the U14s age group is suddenly rather competitive in the 15s and there are 4 or 5 'new' boys who all play rugby.

The headmasters aren't strong enough to confront other schools headmasters about it or they just turn a blind eye and pretend that it isn't happening.

In several schools it is funded by the Old boys Unions.
 

Drew

Dave Cowper (27)
Having 13 players since yr 8 is most likely why they have won the comp last this year. Whereas last year newington had 13 people make GPS teams and only managed to win 2 comp games. But last year Newington have numerous players who were new to the school and as a result rather than being a champion team they were a team of individuals. Well done to them this year.

Talent wise I rekon that last years team would almost be as good as this years. But last years team failed to mix and failed to deliver several times.

The above is true. Continuity was an issue last year. It must be remembered that other than the Kings game they were competitive. Last year they were guilty of not playing enough field position and trying low percentage plays in their own half. Another fault of last years squad was that they did not utilize their options well enough, to much set piece ball was directed straight to Apo. If you have Keliti in your team you should run more plays around his ability to drag in the opposition defence, then unleash the rest of the team with that added room/backpeddalling defence. Obviously this year the decision making, game plan has been executed better. Good on them, happy to hear Bannon going well, as he was playing on the wing/fullback in 2nds, at the start of last year only to work his way into the 1sts.
 
S

sportsfan

Guest
This is why the GPS Head of the River is the most exciting sporting event of the year. 8 blokes from each school who have trained their hearts out for the last 8 months in trying to win a 6min race possibly by a tenth of a second.
The most amazing thing is that each school develops these boys from the first time they sit in a boat at the start of term 4 in year 7. The coaches put time and effort into these boys in aiming for glory throughout each age group and in particular for when theyre in the 1st VIII.

So lets apply the same scrutiny to the Shore 1st VIII and the Kings 1st VIII from the last three years and we might get a few surprises!
 

lincoln

Bob Loudon (25)
So lets apply the same scrutiny to the Shore 1st VIII and the Kings 1st VIII from the last three years and we might get a few surprises!

Slightly off topic given rugby thread but are you questioning where these boys came from or holding them up as strong development programmes because one of these schools had only one boy out of the last 3 VIII's who was not there day 1 year 7 and he came in yr10 and is a son of an old boy who rowed. Rowing does not present as a school scholarship sport for various reasons (which can be saved for a rowing thread on another forum).
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Why do imports/scholarships cause such much angst?
where is the problem, who is the victim?
It should be at each school's discretion who they enrol & whether they charge them school fees.
Just don't pretend, make it transparent.
it's not like everyone doesn't know those who are on a "free ride" it just legitimises it
 
S

sportsfan

Guest
Slightly off topic given rugby thread but are you questioning where these boys came from or holding them up as strong development programmes because one of these schools had only one boy out of the last 3 VIII's who was not there day 1 year 7 and he came in yr10 and is a son of an old boy who rowed. Rowing does not present as a school scholarship sport for various reasons (which can be saved for a rowing thread on another forum).

Fair enough. Enough.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
This is a great thread and it is very interesting getting an inside into how things work in NSW. It seems to be that here in Qld schools are happy to hand out "scholarships" to anyone who has some rugby talent. If you go to some junior games around Brisbane you can see quite a few people from different GPS schools there talking to parents. They can be quite pushy too.
I would really like it if it was more like NSW up here as a few of these schools don't seem to have the interest of the child as their main priority.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
It would be interesting to hear some QLDers views on how the scholarship system is working. QLD keep smashing us in the Schools comp, so it seems to be producing the best rugby players. But has it been good for the spread of rugby, and has it fostered resentment from schools not willing to spend $ on rugby scholarships (e.g., BGS?).
 

Informer

Ward Prentice (10)
At the risk of crashing the party I wonder why this thread is restricted to GPS, when a few CAS schools snub their noses at the CAS code of conduct that prohibits sporting scholarships, not just rugby. Seems to me there is little point in such meaningless strictures when a minority choose to blatantly ignore them. While it is morally indefensible for so called christian schools to go against their own self imposed set of values it is a sad reflection on todays society when even schools have turned into big business with a winner take all mentality. Lets face it, heads don't run schools, school councils do and it can only be with their explicit approval that such breaches occur.

Far better to accept the obvious and the inevitable and open the scholarship gates to all. Some schools will do what they do now and continue to import to prop up their own lack of talent in the pursuit of glory, while others will stick to nurturing their own. I know which one I prefer and rationalisation about nurturing talent that would other be lost is just crap, as if these boys are good enough they will shine in whatever school they attend. All that is happeing now is that boys who previously would have stayed and played in their country or CHS schools are finding a new home to showcase their talent. As an example Apo's name props up regularly and I know he was happy at his CHS school and NTS and had a bright future before the offer from Newington.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
OK, but before we open the floodgates, exactly what is the scale of the issue as it stands? It seems to me that the first point that needs to be made is:

(1) Joeys has a genuine equity program with Aborginal students, and Newington has a historical and religious association with Pacific Islanders, esp. Tongans. I think this is important to state, because when people watch these teams play, and see a mostly non-Anglo backline, they assume that they are all on sporting scholarships. This might be true to a small extent, but I think it is not true in general.

The second point is:

(2) that when you track back these First XVs, a lot of the boys have come through from Year 7. Most of them, in fact.

However, the third point is that:

(3) There is some strong evidence (some of it PMed to me personally) that there is a low level of rugby-focused scholarships (often funded by Old Boys) that bring talented rugby players across from other schools in Years 8-11. This is against the code of conduct, absolutely, but my feeling is that it's not as widespread as some people believe.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
An advanced rugby program and high standard education should not solely be for those that can afford it.

I agree, of course, but which side are you on, skullring?

One way to fix this problem is to develop rugby (and funding, and competitions) at CHS schools. Another way might be to allow scouts to watch junior rugby games and offer scholarships to talented players. That way, talented kids also get a GPS / CAS education, which might end up being more important to them than rugby, since not every kid will become a professional player.
 

Informer

Ward Prentice (10)
I never said open the floodgates, I said open the gates. It would probably be pretty much business as usual with some schools importing and others not. The difference would be it would be transparent, avoiding the current sham. I also agree in getting behind CHS and country rugby to retain and promote talent, but not just as a feeder for CAS and GPS in the last 3 years of school. The development of sports highs has gone some way but more need to be done to retain this talent.

Imagine CHS this year with Apo, the Cox twins and Atkinson alongside Seage, they would be hard to toss. I feel sorry for the CHS coaches who watch their talent spirited away from them at the final hurdle.
 

lincoln

Bob Loudon (25)
Do you guys really want a school like say Shore for example to become the AAGPS equivalent of Manly in the early 80's and start importing kids not just for their 1sts but also to play 2nds (in all sports) so that other schools can't have them. Don't open the door for the sleeping rich giants.

It would help if the AAGPS clarified their code of conduct - it is obvious there are now many athletes across a range of sports at a number of the schools who are on thinly disguised sporting scholarships - either clamp down on it or change the rule. Easy to enforce - just make the parents sign a stat dec saying the fees are being paid by themselves or a member of their family and not by a booster.

I would prefer the ARU to take the lead here and keep the CHS strong - the kids are far better off playing 1st colts (assuming they are good) than schoolboy firsts - guys like Kurtley Beale would have developed a wider skills base in this environment rather than winning easily all the time. Also they play 10 more games a year. Josh Valentine went this route rather than go to a very famous rugby nursery.
 

The Chosen

Fred Wood (13)
At the risk of crashing the party I wonder why this thread is restricted to GPS, when a few CAS schools snub their noses at the CAS code of conduct that prohibits sporting scholarships, not just rugby. Seems to me there is little point in such meaningless strictures when a minority choose to blatantly ignore them. While it is morally indefensible for so called christian schools to go against their own self imposed set of values it is a sad reflection on todays society when even schools have turned into big business with a winner take all mentality. Lets face it, heads don't run schools, school councils do and it can only be with their explicit approval that such breaches occur.

Far better to accept the obvious and the inevitable and open the scholarship gates to all. Some schools will do what they do now and continue to import to prop up their own lack of talent in the pursuit of glory, while others will stick to nurturing their own. I know which one I prefer and rationalisation about nurturing talent that would other be lost is just crap, as if these boys are good enough they will shine in whatever school they attend. All that is happeing now is that boys who previously would have stayed and played in their country or CHS schools are finding a new home to showcase their talent. As an example Apo's name props up regularly and I know he was happy at his CHS school and NTS and had a bright future before the offer from Newington.

Yes- there has been a history of such scholarships in several of the CAS.
For a number of years Waverley provided such scholarships in both Rugby & other sports- swimming especially comes to mind. Swimming is much bigger in CAS than GPS(no rowing in CAS).
With a change in Headmasters @ Waverley,scholarships were apparently canned. To their credit their Rugby standards have remained high, although they have sunk in swimming.
In the inner-West of Sydney, Trinity has boomed as a school- their pupil numbers I understand are around 2000+. Much of this growth has been to the detriment of Newington. My understanding is that Trinity have offered such Scholarships for a number of years- it hasn't dine them much good in Rugby- football(soccer) teams outnumber their Rugby teams. In swimming however they have dominated the CAS Championships for past 6 odd years- at one stage they would have had at least 6-8 State finalists in their squad, all rumoured to be their with assistance.
To the best of my knowledge Knox and Barker have not provided such scholarships=- I am happy to investigate if alleged otherwise.
 
D

Doc

Guest
It would be interesting to hear some QLDers views on how the scholarship system is working. QLD keep smashing us in the Schools comp, so it seems to be producing the best rugby players. But has it been good for the spread of rugby, and has it fostered resentment from schools not willing to spend $ on rugby scholarships (e.g., BGS?).

BGS quickly became one of the worst offenders this year. I guess a 100+ point loss will change a headmasters views.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
My understanding is that Nudgee, State High, Ippy, Churchie, TSS and BGS all recruit players to some degree. I know GT don't. BBC and TGS I am not sure of. I know TGS had a deal with the Broncos and league scholarships but don't know if it still happens.

From what I have read and heard TSS seem to take a bit more of a whole of person approach. They seem to actively want the student to improve academically where as other schools don't see that as a priority. IGS also has had a couple of success stories that I know of. Albert Anae is a perfect example. Went there and became a prefect and is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. He talks in glowing terms about his time at school and will tell you it changed his life.
 
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