Shute Shield 2013

[Ole Two Blue]

Does anyone know who this newly appointed Head Coach of the National academy is?

There appears to be a cast of thousands at the ARU. Nucifora, Eddy, Carossa, etc.

Theres' 3X the total club allocation in Elite development salaries there alone.

Yet we have no money where 'the rubber meets the road'.

You only have to see how the 2010 Australian schools team developed into the 2012 under 20s to see how well money is being spent at the pointy end.

New coach was appointed when Robbie Deans got new assistants
His name is Sean Hedger. He was appointed, there was no interview process

 

[Blackers13]

Who'd a thought O'Neil was on track, read this article. Why didn't he implement it?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...on-in-club-rugby/story-fn8ti7yn-1226495722407

 

[Informer]

New coach was appointed when Robbie Deans got new assistants
His name is Sean Hedger. He was appointed, there was no interview process

Looks like Hedger is ex Qld under 16's coach and now coaching in Japan for the last 4 years. Interesting choice. Does this mean Manu Sutherland has been sidelined?

 

[Andrew B Cox]

Ok, so just from just a coaching Point of view, we have Deans, Blades, Scrivener, McGahan with the Wallabies; Eddy, Nucifora, Hedger, Carozza, Mitchell, Whittacker, Sutherland, Carpenter and Clark in the High Performance Unit. I haven't even begun with the S & C guys. It would be interesting to know how well populated the NZRU offices are.

Seems like the ARU has built an enormous coaching bureaucracy.

I always thought the concepts of 'Bureaucracy' and 'performance' were distinctly at odds with each other.

There's your funding for Premier Rugby right there.

 

[Andrew B Cox]

I also wonder whether this stable of coaches go through the same performance review that the Shute Shield clubs do?

I also wonder whether their salaries are adjusted accordingly.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Off topic slightly, but IAW Andrew B Cox above, Who runs Under 20's and Aust A?
Nuci was head coach for U20's in SA this year. Were his assistants from HPU ranks?
Haven't really had an indepentent Aust A for a while, but would the Wobs/HPU coaches look after Aust A as well?

I also wonder whether their salaries are adjusted accordingly.

Probs not otherwise Nuci would be eating out of a homeless shelter in Kings Cross, after the U20's performance this year.

 

[The Missus]

Does anyone know who this newly appointed Head Coach of the National academy is?

There appears to be a cast of thousands at the ARU. Nucifora, Eddy, Carossa, etc.

Theres' 3X the total club allocation in Elite development salaries there alone.

Yet we have no money where 'the rubber meets the road'.

You only have to see how the 2010 Australian schools team developed into the 2012 under 20s to see how well money is being spent at the pointy end.

Really feel, after reading for a few days, that I need to respond to this. It actually wasn't the Australian Schoolboys from 2010 which were developed into this team given that only 13 of them were picked to tour. Of that 13 one ended up not going due to injury (Hingano), one was injured on tour (Holland), one was coming back from a twelve/eighteen month injury (Reiser) and the other got barely any game time (Cummins). So basically only 9 of the 24 man 2010 squad got a run. There were five that I can think of left languishing behind playing 1st or 2nd grade Shute Shield (Gillespie (1st/2nd's Eastood), Connor (1st's Randwick), Killingworth/Donlan (1st's Warringah), Millar (2nd's Uni) and that's the ones I know of in NSW. I'm sure there were others playing 1st Grade in both Brisbane and Canberra. Dion Taumata comes to mind. I don't think you can tar that team like that when the only game they lost was against NZ who sported three that are now playing ITM Cup (including TJ Peranara who is playing Super 15). This years Oz 20's included 14 boys who are eligible to play again next year and three of those can play the year after so you tell me, who's letting who down?

 

[Andrew B Cox]

I think that's my point misses. The 2010 schoolboys were a pretty good side. Under the national academy that intake has slid down the ratings. So, yes, The elite coaching department of the ARU is letting the nation down.

If the under 20s win next year, they deserve all the accolades, but this year was a disgrace.

 

[Rugby Central]

I would not support anything from the ACT as a stand alone as they currently do not support the national interests by making elite players run around in the local comp. Not in the best for the development of the game, especially when they do not develop a great deal anymore( no more Larkhams, Gregans, Roffs et al on the radar)

While most of your post is interesting and informed this particular comment is bollocks. What better way to develop local rugby out side of Sydney and Brisbane than to have the Super Rugby players and Wallabies available to the local clubs. Clubs are more likley to get crowd numbers, sponsors an inspiration when Super Rugby players share the field with the aspiring kids coming out of school.

It might not be in the interest of Shute Shield Clubs but to have quality players spread across local comps every where in the country can only be good for rugby nationally. If Melbourne and Perth did the same thing players in these AFL heartlands might be interested enough to continue with rugby.

 

[the coach]

While most of your post is interesting and informed this particular comment is bollocks. What better way to develop local rugby out side of Sydney and Brisbane than to have the Super Rugby players and Wallabies available to the local clubs. Clubs are more likley to get crowd numbers, sponsors an inspiration when Super Rugby players share the field with the aspiring kids coming out of school.

It might not be in the interest of Shute Shield Clubs but to have quality players spread across local comps every where in the country can only be good for rugby nationally. If Melbourne and Perth did the same thing players in these AFL heartlands might be interested enough to continue with rugby.

I understand your position, but it doesn't seem very fair to the clubs who have developed these players through juniors, colts and grade to suddenly have them arbitrarily allocated to another club in another competition without receiving any compensation. I fear we are spreading the talent far too thinly. The whole concept of a third tier relies on a concentration of talent, not the reverse. In addition, for the Shute Shield clubs to attract sponsors and survive they need to be able to provide a quality product.

 

[Dave Beat]

While most of your post is interesting and informed this particular comment is bollocks. What better way to develop local rugby out side of Sydney and Brisbane than to have the Super Rugby players and Wallabies available to the local clubs. Clubs are more likley to get crowd numbers, sponsors an inspiration when Super Rugby players share the field with the aspiring kids coming out of school.

It might not be in the interest of Shute Shield Clubs but to have quality players spread across local comps every where in the country can only be good for rugby nationally. If Melbourne and Perth did the same thing players in these AFL heartlands might be interested enough to continue with rugby.

Sooty, I also understand your position - would be hoped that out of the existing ACT comp a representative team could be put together to compete in a 3T.
ACT has allways had a rugby following unlike VIC, and WA.
I do feel ACT need to develop their own talent and not pilfer from NSW & QLD.

 

[Rugby Central]

I understand your position, but it doesn't seem very fair to the clubs who have developed these players through juniors, colts and grade to suddenly have them arbitrarily allocated to another club in another competition without receiving any compensation. I fear we are spreading the talent far too thinly. The whole concept of a third tier relies on a concentration of talent, not the reverse. In addition, for the Shute Shield clubs to attract sponsors and survive they need to be able to provide a quality product.

You mean those Randwick juniors Campesie and Gregan???? The Brumbies academy paid for someone else to develop the Faainga brothers. Then there's the players told by Waratah's management they'll never be good enough - Pat McCabe for example. The ACT contribution might be small but is a truck load more effective than Sydney.

Sydney Rugby is the goose that laid the golden egg when it comes to juniors rugby, yet they pi$$ed it all away. Don't have a sook now that someone (even as incompetent as Fagan) is doing something to encourage people to get involved in local club rugby.

A cynic could suggest that if it's about revenue, TV rights and player development, maybe the competition could be set up in Canberra because there'd be no travel expenses and they'd have access to the great sporting facilities. It's not like they couldn't manage the 500-600 crowd numbers you get to a regular Shute Shield match.

Sorry, but the obscene Sydney-centric attitude is killing rugby in this country. And I played Shute Shield and am now a Sydney rugby club administrator (Subbies). Sydney rugby has got so much wrong that it's infuriating to hear people claim that Sydney should be the answer to everything.

 

[Dave Beat]

You mean those Randwick juniors Campesie and Gregan???? The Brumbies academy paid for someone else to develop the Faainga brothers. Then there's the players told by Waratah's management they'll never be good enough - Pat McCabe for example. The ACT contribution might be small but is a truck load more effective than Sydney.

Sydney Rugby is the goose that laid the golden egg when it comes to juniors rugby, yet they pi$$ed it all away. Don't have a sook now that someone (even as incompetent as Fagan) is doing something to encourage people to get involved in local club rugby.

A cynic could suggest that if it's about revenue, TV rights and player development, maybe the competition could be set up in Canberra because there'd be no travel expenses and they'd have access to the great sporting facilities. It's not like they couldn't manage the 500-600 crowd numbers you get to a regular Shute Shield match.

Sorry, but the obscene Sydney-centric attitude is killing rugby in this country. And I played Shute Shield and am now a Sydney rugby club administrator (Subbies). Sydney rugby has got so much wrong that it's infuriating to hear people claim that Sydney should be the answer to everything.

RC sensational - off or on the mark.
I dont think it is right Sydney Players can't come back and play for their clubs, it wasnt the club who didnt look after McCabe.
I dont think it is right either if ACT talent is pulled away from the ACT.
If NSW / QLD miss out on quality and ACT picks it up - fair call, howeverl
I'm sure all Shute Sheild Clubs are trying to promote their players to the next level but no doubt they'd get a bit nervous when it comes to the Brumbies though - get my drift, spend time developing a player through the juniors like George Smith, or Michael Hooper, and?????

What would be great is an ACT rep team playing in the 3T, that would help develop and also retain quality.

 

[the coach]

You mean those Randwick juniors Campesie and Gregan???? The Brumbies academy paid for someone else to develop the Faainga brothers. Then there's the players told by Waratah's management they'll never be good enough - Pat McCabe for example. The ACT contribution might be small but is a truck load more effective than Sydney.

Sydney Rugby is the goose that laid the golden egg when it comes to juniors rugby, yet they pi$$ed it all away. Don't have a sook now that someone (even as incompetent as Fagan) is doing something to encourage people to get involved in local club rugby.

A cynic could suggest that if it's about revenue, TV rights and player development, maybe the competition could be set up in Canberra because there'd be no travel expenses and they'd have access to the great sporting facilities. It's not like they couldn't manage the 500-600 crowd numbers you get to a regular Shute Shield match.

Sorry, but the obscene Sydney-centric attitude is killing rugby in this country. And I played Shute Shield and am now a Sydney rugby club administrator (Subbies). Sydney rugby has got so much wrong that it's infuriating to hear people claim that Sydney should be the answer to everything.

I think you're overlooking the fact that Campese and Gregan (and others) came to Sydney before the Brumbies came into existence and just as well they did otherwise they wouldn't have developed into the great Australian players they became. Now that the ACT has a Super 15 team and a flourishing local club competition I'm happy for the locally developed players to remain in the Dent Cup, but the Sydney clubs are entitled to get their juniors back after the S15 season.

 

[Lindommer]

I think you're overlooking the fact that Campese and Gregan (and others) came to Sydney before the Brumbies came into existence.....

Dunno 'bout that. Campo certainly played for ACT (or was it NSW Country/ACT?) before he came to Sydney and played for Randwick and Gregan joined the GGs some time post 1995, I suspect it was after 1996 and the Brumbies inception.

 

[the coach]

Dunno 'bout that. Campo certainly played for ACT (or was it NSW Country/ACT?) before he came to Sydney and played for Randwick and Gregan joined the GGs some time post 1995, I suspect it was after 1996 and the Brumbies inception.

Gregan's last game for Randwick was in the 1996 Grand Final.
My point is that both came to Sydney before there was any comparable competition in the ACT to the Shute Shield.
But we're talking ancient history. The point now is that for clubs to remain viable in both Sydney and ACT they need to be able to present a quality product to sponsors and supporters. They also need their S15 players back to play alongside young, future S15 players. The players certainly should have the choice of whether to return to their clubs rather than be allocated without any input to another club. Let's also remember that Australia won 2 World Cups on the back of strong club competitions in Sydney and Brisbane. Dilution of talent doesn't guarantee an increase in overall standard. It's just like adding water to scotch: you don't end up with better quality just more quantity!

 

[Done that]

Gregan's last game for Randwick was in the 1996 Grand Final.
My point is that both came to Sydney before there was any comparable competition in the ACT to the Shute Shield.
But we're talking ancient history. The point now is that for clubs to remain viable in both Sydney and ACT they need to be able to present a quality product to sponsors and supporters. They also need their S15 players back to play alongside young, future S15 players. The players certainly should have the choice of whether to return to their clubs rather than be allocated without any input to another club. Let's also remember that Australia won 2 World Cups on the back of strong club competitions in Sydney and Brisbane. Dilution of talent doesn't guarantee an increase in overall standard. It's just like adding water to scotch: you don't end up with better quality just more quantity!

Where players go after the S 15 competition ends is determined by their contractual arrangements with that S 15 team.
Players do have a choice , i.e. if they don't agree with the contractual requirements , then they shouldn't sign the contract to play with that S 15 team.

 

[the coach]

Where players go after the S 15 competition ends is determined by their contractual arrangements with that S 15 team.
Players do have a choice , i.e. if they don't agree with the contractual requirements , then they shouldn't sign the contract to play with that S 15 team.

Yes, I understand that.
The question is whether it's for the good of Australian rugby to force players away from their clubs.
Sure they have a choice, but if that's the only contract on the table it's not much of a choice.

 

[Rugby Central]

Yes, I understand that.
The question is whether it's for the good of Australian rugby to force players away from their clubs.
Sure they have a choice, but if that's the only contract on the table it's not much of a choice.

Actually Coach, it's the same choice the rest of us get. I work for a business in Sydney. While they like to offer the work/life balance, I can't just live wherever I want to do my job. Let alone offer my services to anyone of my choosing while they pay my salary.

If you want to build a local following, have consistent performance and limit employee expenses then you want you're employees available to do what is best for your business. If you want to play PROFESSIONAL rugby then...shock, horror....you have to be professional and honour your contractual obligations.

Whether it's good for Australian Rugby...the jury's still out. But one thing's for certain, it couldn't be worse than the status quo.

 

[the coach]

Actually Coach, it's the same choice the rest of us get. I work for a business in Sydney. While they like to offer the work/life balance, I can't just live wherever I want to do my job. Let alone offer my services to anyone of my choosing while they pay my salary.

If you want to build a local following, have consistent performance and limit employee expenses then you want you're employees available to do what is best for your business. If you want to play PROFESSIONAL rugby then.shock, horror..you have to be professional and honour your contractual obligations.

Whether it's good for Australian Rugby.the jury's still out. But one thing's for certain, it couldn't be worse than the status quo.

You probably have a few more choices though.
There are only 5 "employers" of rugby players in Australia.
No question, having S15 quality players playing in the Dent Cup is good for the Brumbies, but I still feel for the Sydney clubs who spend a lot of time and money developing players and then receive no compensation if the player receives the reward of being offered a S15 contract with a team which then doesn't allow the player to play for his club. I wonder how many of the Brisbane and Sydney Brumbies would voluntarily play in the Dent Cup if they had the choice?