Shute Shield 2013

[Rugby Central]

RC sensational - off or on the mark.
I dont think it is right Sydney Players can't come back and play for their clubs, it wasnt the club who didnt look after McCabe.
I dont think it is right either if ACT talent is pulled away from the ACT.
If NSW / QLD miss out on quality and ACT picks it up - fair call, howeverl
I'm sure all Shute Sheild Clubs are trying to promote their players to the next level but no doubt they'd get a bit nervous when it comes to the Brumbies though - get my drift, spend time developing a player through the juniors like George Smith, or Michael Hooper, and?????

What would be great is an ACT rep team playing in the 3T, that would help develop and also retain quality.

DB - I'm not sure if you're involved in Junior Rugby in Sydney but the development of junior players is non existent from a Shute Shield Club level. You will never see them turn up to Junior's matches, you don't see them do anything. They go to the private schools and recruit from there. The juniors that do succeed, do so from raw talent and hard work, IN SPITE of shute shield clubs, not because of them. The only time a SHute Shield Club shows interest in a junior, not from the GPS and other private school systems, is when they make a schoolboy rep side. So please don't pretend there's some loyalty owed to Sydney Clubs for the work they don't do.

As for a Canberra team in Sydney or Brisbane. Tried that; but basically the majority clubs had a sook that traveling that far once a year was all too hard. Even though the Canberra team did it every second week, and still managed to be more than competitive in Sydney and win the Brisbane comp, twice.

So keep talking up the sheltered workshop mentality of Sydney Rugby. Just remember where we are in Sydney at the moment and ask yourself why is it worth protecting.

 

[the coach]

DB - I'm not sure if you're involved in Junior Rugby in Sydney but the development of junior players is non existent from a Shute Shield Club level. You will never see them turn up to Junior's matches, you don't see them do anything. They go to the private schools and recruit from there. The juniors that do succeed, do so from raw talent and hard work, IN SPITE of shute shield clubs, not because of them. The only time a SHute Shield Club shows interest in a junior, not from the GPS and other private school systems, is when they make a schoolboy rep side. So please don't pretend there's some loyalty owed to Sydney Clubs for the work they don't do.

As for a Canberra team in Sydney or Brisbane. Tried that; but basically the majority clubs had a sook that traveling that far once a year was all too hard. Even though the Canberra team did it every second week, and still managed to be more than competitive in Sydney and win the Brisbane comp, twice.

So keep talking up the sheltered workshop mentality of Sydney Rugby. Just remember where we are in Sydney at the moment and ask yourself why is it worth protecting.

So you're just dismissing the work done by the various development officers who work with the public schools etc in some (not sure how many) Shute Shield areas and who are financed by the clubs?

 

[Rugby Central]

There may be some clubs doing this work, but most development officers out there are employed by the ARU. As for being dismissive of the efforts, maybe the Clubs could look to their own recruitment policies of shopping for journeymen or waiting until the school rep sides are announced.

As a disclosure I can only speak for the last four years being involved in junior rugby, and a number of years as a Shute Shield Club player (at the beginning of the professional era). But in that time I have never seen a "development officer" from a Shute Shield Club attend any juniors matches and have been told that they "don't do that sort of thing" by 2 separate Shute Shield clubs when I thought building a link to the Shute Shield was a worthwhile endeavour.

Don't get me wrong, development is an expensive exercise, it's why few clubs do it. Just don't claim some higher purpose when someone behaves like a professional organisation should.

 

[Ole Two Blue]

thought i'd weigh in to this one.

It's no secret we don't have any $$. As for junior development, we'd be the first to admit that our systems are not perfect, however, for years, the senior club has supported the junior rep program by way of financial assistance to purchase gear, or coaching, or grade and colts players helping out with selections, coaching, training etc etc. It's not perfect, and can always improve and progress, but we are out there helping where we can. As for the ARU. We only see them when they want to hire our ground for a primary schools 7s tournament. A lot of our junior club President's would not be able to tell anyone the name of the appointed Development Officer

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There is truth on both sides of the argument here.

Shute shield Clubs are run on the smell of an oily rag and have very little to give to their junior programmes. Many Junior village clubs value their independence fiercely and will only engage with the Shute Shield Clubs on their terms rather than from a symbiotic perspective.

The Shute Shield clubs would love to be able to have Development officers hitting up the schools in their area feeding kids into the village clubs, and then to have First Grade and S15 players turn up at 9am to watch and coach the Under 6's - Under 13's. These resources may exist in AFL and NRL but not at Shute Shield level. People need to get realistic. I am sure if it was physically possible, the Shute Shield Clubs would be doing more.

In terms of who develops players, try this example and this is not unique.

A young man I am acquainted with was an Aust Schoolboy in 2011.

He played Village club Rugby in for his District from Under 8 to Under 15. He played with another Village Club in another district in Under 16's which was closer to his school and many of his school mates were there.

He played State Champs with his first District from Under 10 - Under 15. He played State Champs with the District that was closer to his school in U16, and was in some sort of junior academy programme with that District.

He played Colts last year with that same Shute Shield Club. There have been some unconfirmed posts in Gaggerland's threads suggesting that he may be moving back to his first Shute Shield Club Colts District this year.

From Under 13 - Opens he played School Footy with GPS School.

He was in the NGS/NTS or whatever with ARU from U15 to now.

There was some GPS and NSW Schools rep development as well along his pathway.

Which of these entities should get the development kudos?

Like so many others, he has worked his arse off to get to where he is now, and his development has been the sum of many inputs, none of which can claim exclusive rights.

Life is vastly more complex in the 21st Century than it was back in the amateur days of the 70’s and 80’s.

 

[the coach]

Thanks Hugh, good to see an example of what actually happens in the real world!

 

[southsider]

There is truth on both sides of the argument here.

Shute shield Clubs are run on the smell of an oily rag and have very little to give to their junior programmes. Many Junior village clubs value their independence fiercely and will only engage with the Shute Shield Clubs on their terms rather than from a symbiotic perspective.

The Shute Shield clubs would love to be able to have Development officers hitting up the schools in their area feeding kids into the village clubs, and then to have First Grade and S15 players turn up at 9am to watch and coach the Under 6's - Under 13's. These resources may exist in AFL and NRL but not at Shute Shield level. People need to get realistic. I am sure if it was physically possible, the Shute Shield Clubs would be doing more.

In terms of who develops players, try this example and this is not unique.

A young man I am acquainted with was an Aust Schoolboy in 2011.

He played Village club Rugby in for his District from Under 8 to Under 15. He played with another Village Club in another district in Under 16's which was closer to his school and many of his school mates were there.

He played State Champs with his first District from Under 10 - Under 15. He played State Champs with the District that was closer to his school in U16, and was in some sort of junior academy programme with that District.

He played Colts last year with that same Shute Shield Club. There have been some unconfirmed posts in Gaggerland's threads suggesting that he may be moving to Randwick this year.

From Under 13 - Opens he played School Footy with GPS School.

He was in the NGS/NTS or whatever with ARU from U15 to now.

There was some GPS and NSW Schools rep development as well along his pathway.

Which of these entities should get the development kudos?

Like so many others, he has worked his arse off to get to where he is now, and his development has been the sum of many inputs, none of which can claim exclusive rights.

Life is vastly more complex in the 21st Century than it was back in the amateur days of the 70’s and 80’s.

he probably owes most of it to his junior club and school, although the kids such a freak he would of made it regardless of who/where he played his rugby

 

[stonecutter]

Sorry, but I struggle to have too much empathy for the majority of the clubs. Rugby is a professional sport and clubs are kidding themselves to think that a players misguided loyalty will overcome a cash offer. Some clubs are more diligent in their efforts to support (not develop) their juniors but I would refute to the point of compensation. At best you can provide an environment and culture that players will return to if the opportunity exists and lets not forget that most clubs are cannabalising each others playing rosters as we type (there's even a forum site to discuss player movements!)

I agree we need clubs to be strong and viable propositions but they seem to miss the reality that their role in our structure is as feeder vehicle to the S15 franchises. Clubs can rejoice in having supported a players pathway but if an employer makes demands of them they have to honour that obligation foremost.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

he probably owes most of it to his junior club and school, although the kids such a freak he would of made it regardless of who/where he played his rugby

I suspect you have twigged to who the example I quoted is. That is not the issue.

The highlighted bit at the end of your post is rather pertinent.

There is seldom any argument over who "developed" the average player: village club, School, or State Championship coach. While these players are the heart and soul of our game, they are dropped in a heartbeat to accommodate the next Campo, Bam Bam or Nobody.

The solid dependable Joe Averages who toiled away in 1st XV at ISA or GPS 2nd XV, played a few State Championships on the way up, is seldom headhunted or poached by other District Clubs, and not many brag about their role in developing Joe.

The Rockstars as my previous example are developed in the Innuit tradition("It takes a community to raise a child"), and are such freaks that they would make it regardless of the School or club they were affiliated with.

These are the kids that clubs whinge about how much they have invested in the kid when they are "poached" away by other clubs, but the truth is that regardless of the "development investment" the losing club may think they invested in the kid, he was seriously good regardless.

Rather than whinge about how much "investment" a club may have made in a player, they should focus on increasing player numbers, and spreading the gospel of St William Webb-Ellis. The quality will come from within the quantity.

Coming back to the Two Blues issue, the key challenge for them will be to get the numbers up first, and then from within those numbers the cream should rise to the top.
Some of these will be poached or go for their own personal reasons, just focus on the inputs and these will be replaced in due course.

 

[the coach]

I suspect you have twigged to who the example I quoted is. That is not the issue.

The highlighted bit at the end of your post is rather pertinent.

There is seldom any argument over who "developed" the average player: village club, School, or State Championship coach. While these players are the heart and soul of our game, they are dropped in a heartbeat to accommodate the next Campo, Bam Bam or Nobody.

The solid dependable Joe Averages who toiled away in 1st XV at ISA or GPS 2nd XV, played a few State Championships on the way up, is seldom headhunted or poached by other District Clubs, and not many brag about their role in developing Joe.

The Rockstars as my previous example are developed in the Innuit tradition("It takes a community to raise a child"), and are such freaks that they would make it regardless of the School or club they were affiliated with.

These are the kids that clubs whinge about how much they have invested in the kid when they are "poached" away by other clubs, but the truth is that regardless of the "development investment" the losing club may think they invested in the kid, he was seriously good regardless.

Rather than whinge about how much "investment" a club may have made in a player, they should focus on increasing player numbers, and spreading the gospel of St William Webb-Ellis. The quality will come from within the quantity.

Coming back to the Two Blues issue, the key challenge for them will be to get the numbers up first, and then from within those numbers the cream should rise to the top.
Some of these will be poached or go for their own personal reasons, just focus on the inputs and these will be replaced in due course.

The player points system was supposed to discourage clubs from poaching players from other clubs.
Maybe it needs a serious overhaul ????

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The loophole in the points system is the loyalty discount.

If a club can "poach", "lure", or "entice" a kid early enough (even during school 1st XV days), then when they are 1st grade material, their points value is seriously discounted, even if they are Aust Schoolboys, Wobs U20 or Wobs.

The measure designed to promote "loyalty" and development has become a loophole.

Not sure how you close it without becoming a serious administrative headache, and possibly introducing more loopholes.

 

[The Missus]

There is truth on both sides of the argument here.

Shute shield Clubs are run on the smell of an oily rag and have very little to give to their junior programmes. Many Junior village clubs value their independence fiercely and will only engage with the Shute Shield Clubs on their terms rather than from a symbiotic perspective.

The Shute Shield clubs would love to be able to have Development officers hitting up the schools in their area feeding kids into the village clubs, and then to have First Grade and S15 players turn up at 9am to watch and coach the Under 6's - Under 13's. These resources may exist in AFL and NRL but not at Shute Shield level. People need to get realistic. I am sure if it was physically possible, the Shute Shield Clubs would be doing more.

In terms of who develops players, try this example and this is not unique.

A young man I am acquainted with was an Aust Schoolboy in 2011.

He played Village club Rugby in for his District from Under 8 to Under 15. He played with another Village Club in another district in Under 16's which was closer to his school and many of his school mates were there.

He played State Champs with his first District from Under 10 - Under 15. He played State Champs with the District that was closer to his school in U16, and was in some sort of junior academy programme with that District.

He played Colts last year with that same Shute Shield Club. There have been some unconfirmed posts in Gaggerland's threads suggesting that he may be moving back to his first Shute Shield Club Colts District this year.

From Under 13 - Opens he played School Footy with GPS School.

He was in the NGS/NTS or whatever with ARU from U15 to now.

There was some GPS and NSW Schools rep development as well along his pathway.

Which of these entities should get the development kudos?

Like so many others, he has worked his arse off to get to where he is now, and his development has been the sum of many inputs, none of which can claim exclusive rights.

Life is vastly more complex in the 21st Century than it was back in the amateur days of the 70’s and 80’s.

Also know of a boy from the Australian Schoolboys of 2010 who played all his Junior Rugby from U7's to U17's with his Village Club, played reps for his District from U10's to U16's (captaining them to a State Championship), went to a GPS school from U11's to Opens (captained their First XV), GPS 1sts, NSW2's and returned to play Colts with his District (despite offers from others) and is now part of their Shute Shield team.

I would imagine he would say all have played a particular role in his development and he is better for it but in the long run it was his love for his District Club and his desire to play 1st Grade for them which drew him back. Similarly, he has also worked his ass off to get to where he is.

Oh were it that easy to have boys play their first year of Colts with their District Clubs with Uni drawing from their pool of students or the country boys that have no affiliation with Junior Clubs (boarders at the GPS, CAS schools). Might give each District Club the opportunity to keep them "at home". Very naive concept I know.

 

[southsider]

The loophole in the points system is the loyalty discount.

If a club can "poach", "lure", or "entice" a kid early enough (even during school 1st XV days), then when they are 1st grade material, their points value is seriously discounted, even if they are Aust Schoolboys, Wobs U20 or Wobs.

The measure designed to promote "loyalty" and development has become a loophole.

Not sure how you close it without becoming a serious administrative headache, and possibly introducing more loopholes.

they should just have loyalty for local juniors.

they should just say colts dont count and juniors (u18) you have to have played for a min 2-3 years including a certain amount of games for your village club (lets say 75%) in order to recieve a discount

cuts down on poaching young talent, deters clubs from going after more established talent from other clubs as their points will always stay the same and puts a emphasis on clubs to develop their juniors and not just focuss on 1 or 2 superstars who are genetically gifted enough to be 80 plus kgs at the age of 13

 

[the coach]

Anyone know who's coaching the following SS teams next year?
Manly - is Tim Lane staying or moving on?
Penrith
Gordon
Sydney University
I assume all the others are as per 2012 except West Harbour and Randwick who have already announced their changes.

 

[boyo]

Anyone know who's coaching the following SS teams next year?
Manly - is Tim Lane staying or moving on?
Penrith
Gordon
Sydney University
I assume all the others are as per 2012 except West Harbour and Randwick who have already announced their changes.

Chris Malone

 

[Knuckles]

Anyone know who's coaching the following SS teams next year?
Manly - is Tim Lane staying or moving on? He is hedging his bets and has some interviews with UK clubs while he is over there with Tonga
Penrith - will there be anyone to coach?
Gordon - to be determined after the power struggle is won and lost
Sydney University - Chris Malone
I assume all the others are as per 2012 except West Harbour and Randwick who have already announced their changes.

Strong rumours too Brian Melrose is going to Easts as Assistant Coach to Bakewell. Rumours also Lachie Fear will be back next year somewhere

 

[Lee Grant]

Rather than whinge about how much "investment" a club may have made in a player, they should focus on increasing player numbers, and spreading the gospel of St William Webb-Ellis. The quality will come from within the quantity.

Well said that man.
.

 

[rugbyisfun]

Sounds like Easts truly are in the shit. They sacked their admin staff this week apparently

 

[Tah and feathered]

I was on the Penrith website and there is nothing about this upcoming season and basically there is nothing about anything and with some players joining other clubs is there going to be a Penrith rugby club in 2013?
Any Emu supporters can give any info on what's happening

 

[lily]

Always been a supporter of the Emus but it may possibly be fork time if they continue to hemorrhage players and coaching staff.