Subbies 2023!

[WoodyWoodsman]

Congratulations to Newport on what is, probably, described as a major upset. Personally the Woodsman thought that UNSW was the only team that may challenge Lindfield for the Barraclough, however, this Newport squad is resilient and tough.
Will be interesting to see if Lindfield can complete the sweep next week, in what is a landmark season for the club.
LOWER DIVISIONS PREDICTIONS:
Division 2
Barraclough: Lindfield vs Newport - LINDFIELD
Stockdale: Lindfield vs UNSW - LINDFIELD
Robertson: Lindfield vs Newport - LINDFIELD
Blunt: Hills vs Lindfield - LINDFIELD
Richardson: Lindfield vs UNSW - LINDFIELD
Yep, I think that Lindfield do the sweep of Division 2 and add all five trophies to the Halligan Cup, Reliance Shield and Cowboy Cup, becoming the most successful season in Subbies history.

Division 3
Clark: Beecroft vs Sydney Harbour - HARBOUR
Farrant: Sydney Harbour (Easts) vs Beecroft - EASTS
Nicholson: Knox vs Easts - KNOX
As much as I would like to see the men in green knock over this weird set up at Harbour, I think the fact that they have to recycle reserves may be there undoing. I know they have a tremendous colts group to call on, but I think they get down. Eric Tweedale will be a great place for finals footy.

Division 4
McLean: Irish vs Redfield; Merrylands vs Rockdale - IRISH vs MERRYLANDS GF with Irish's smarts to beat Merrylands size.
Grose: Merrylands vs Redfield; Irish vs Rockdale - MERRYLANDS vs IRISH GF with Merrylands landing second grade.

Division 5
Interesting set up where you don't have to be the best in the competition to win a trophy.
JEFFREY: Burraneer vs (Winner of Oatley v Georges River): I don't think it matters who they play BURRANEER have dominated Division 5 and will be the Jeffrey Cup champs.
MELDRUM: Canterbury vs (Winner of Kings v Colleagues): This is a prize for 5th place, yep, you read that right. It's the FLINT MICHIGAN MEGA BOWL (for all you Jackie Moon fans). In the who cares cup, Canterbury win.

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

Mate - you need your head read!

It doesn’t matter how many old blokes run around in Mosman 7ths….they forfeited a series of colts games - and deserve no mercy. The Club Champs is the ONLY measure…..

A 10 team complete Div One would be a complete joke…. Mosman better get Google maps out and discover the delights of Yettinden and Somerville

With a whole off season to go, I'm going to sell you my proposal for Division 1:


Division 1 (10 clubs - 4 grades and Colts)
Pool A: Blue Mountains, Forest, Hunters Hill, Lindfield, Mosman
Pool B: Colleagues, Drummoyne, Petersham, St Patricks, Waverley

Home and away for your own pool in Rounds 1-8, then cross over and play everyone in the opposite pool in Round 9-13. Round 14 is a shoot out for positions - 1st in Pool A vs 1st in Pool B; 2nd in Pool a vs 2nd in Pool B, etc.

Semi Finals: Teams are ranked based on the last round playoff, winner of 1v1 is ‘minor premiers’.
Week 1 Qualifying Finals: 3 v 6; 4 v 5
Week 2 Semi Finals: 1 vs Winner of 4v5; 2 vs Winner of 3v6
Week 3 Grand Final: Winners of Semi Finals play off

Before you toss my proposal, I'll remind you that a number of Division 2 clubs are on the brink and might be unwilling to compete in the Division if Mosman and Petersham are dropped, or Lindfield stays. It is a tough slog getting players to games, without the threat of these Division 1 clubs, after a down year, taking it out on the rest of them.

 

[Pfitzy]

Division 1 (10 clubs - 4 grades and Colts)
Pool A: Blue Mountains, Forest, Hunters Hill, Lindfield, Mosman
Pool B: Colleagues, Drummoyne, Petersham, St Patricks, Waverley

What about ranking them on CC points?

Pool A: Colleagues, Drummoyne, Blue Mountains, Forest, Mosman
Pool B: Hunters Hill, Waverley, St Pats, Petersham, Lindfield*

* Wildcard last spot as they are the promoted club.

 

[Pfitzy]

I guess they only issue with that proposal is it further seals off Div 1 from everyone else, but then that might be inevitable with the way things are going.

 

[HogansHeros]

I guess they only issue with that proposal is it further seals off Div 1 from everyone else, but then that might be inevitable with the way things are going.

Key word seems to be inevitable

 

[Pfitzy]

Key word seems to be inevitable

Qualified with "might"

 

[Pfitzy]

If you stick 10 teams in Div 1, you risk Div 2 and 3 never stabilising.

We are currently at 9x7x6 - Savers being non viable in the context third Division.

Only moving Lindfield up leaves 10x6x6

In Div 3 only Beecroft could maybe move up to 3 grades + Colts. So 10x7x5.

But Iggies looked on the bones of their arse by the end of the year. Can they stick it out in third Div? You might be looking at 10x7x4...

You'd need 3 clubs in Div 4 to acquire colts and move up at a minimum. Could Merrylands grab a Two Blues U20 squad to do this? Rockdale with Southern Districts? Redfield get some school leavers?

Worth noting Rockdale have been very short of players the last few weeks despite their success, so maybe they don't want the added challenge just yet in their first year back.

Trying a 10 club first division might be as destructive as any of the options to make 8.

 

[Heavyd]

Think breakers were up for the win - credit to them. Interesting that their players who played today weren’t there all season. “Europe” was a meme, but last week they beat us with players who were “on the bench” for the last few weeks but magically were back. Am sure UNSW is licking their wounds, but know that Newport has had history with saying their players are on the bench but are half a world away. They barely beat us last week, by question if they will even get close to lindfield - unsw choked. I feel that they got away with registering layers who were away - they claimed they had certain players playing, but they were verifiably injured. Such is subbies, but it doesn’t make team stacking any better

Stacking 1st grade with two 3rd grade props has proven a master stroke. The two wingers, half and outside centre are last years colts. The sensational Allen brothers are from last years Barraclough winning 1st grade. One of which got injured in round 3 and only came back a few weeks ago. Im at a loss as to the "stack"

 

[Denistone_Dennis]

Two Blues won't have an u20 squad themselves next year at the current rate...

 

[Heavyd]

It’s interesting to hear a lecture about the health of Div 2 from a Newport supporter when they didn’t have a 4th grade, barely had a 3rd grade and even forfeited 2s during the season.

Hardly a lecture.

Yes we knew we would struggle this year and informed subbies before the season started around european vacations impacting player numbers. Off the back of 2022's Barraclough cup, the club champs and 3rd in the Cowboy Cup they cut us some slack. In a tough year we have just made the GF in 1s and colts despite our issues and Im sure the club deeply regret the one 2nd grade forfeit, but injuries happen when you ask players to back up and thats rugby.
Im certain the Breakers will welcome Mosman and Peterham to DIV 2 next year and will give them a run for their money. The alternative is (in my view) the destruction of Subbies with clubs like Newport, UNSW, HIll, Beecroft etc left to rot on the vine in some mickey mouse comp while the DIV 1 'elites' are untouchable or unrelegatable.

PS 2nd Div doesnt have a 4th grade comp.

 

[Heure]

Watched UNSW v Newport - as entertaining as it was neither team would make top 4 in the Burke Cup. The standard of Div 2 is eye openly weak and it needs both forest and Petersham in it.

The yellow streak down the back of the subbies board is about to get even damper as they prepare to excuse the Mosman royalty of relegation.

kentwell finals time so we will have to park this conversation until the trough is emptied.

 

[Eastcoast]

I dont see an end to this debate - even after the structure of the Divisions is agreed upon next year.

Personally - Id ask for 10 team Div 1 and see how the other teams are tracking. Given the reduction of Colts across most teams, it means that there isnt the same amount of players coming through as there was 10 years ago when you had almost 3 Divisions of colts.

1st grade in Div 2 does seem all over the shop though. On this forum alone ive heard Hills were the only team that could match it with the top 2. They didnt make the finals. Epping were 3 tries up on Newport before the Red card so would feel a bit unlucky not to have been in the Prelim. Newport were then meant to be dusted by UNSW, but they did enough to get over the line. Looking forward to keeping an eye on the GF this week while Blueys and HH go at it.

@Heavyd - How are the Prop stocks this week?

 

[Denistone_Dennis]

The problem is, if you do a 10 team Div 1 next year, where does it end? What if you have a similar situation to this season where one club dominates Div 2 and there is no club obviously below the standard of the others in Div 1?

11 teams in 2025?

Everyone said 10 teams in 2024 was a fantasy 12 months ago.

 

[The Wombat]

PS 2nd Div doesnt have a 4th grade comp.

exactly, and the plan is to send teams with 5 and 6 grades into this comp.

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

For the sake of a different idea, why not experiment with something different for divisions 3 down.
Fix division 2 by making either Beecroft or Harlequins go up. For the sake of this scenario, let's say Beecroft.
Division 1: Blue Mountains, Colleagues, Drummoyne, Forest, Hunters Hill, Mosman, Petersham, St Pats, Waverley.
Division 2: Beecroft, Briars, Hawkesbury Valley, Hills, Lindfield, Newport, UNSW.
At the end of 2023, the last placed club in Division 1 is relegated. No questions asked. If the top placed club in Division 2 wishes to move into Division 1, they have a one round playoff against the 8th placed club. Based on club champ points, winner is in Division 1.

Then from Division 3 down, you grade clubs, based on number of grade and competition.

	Div 3 1st Grade (Clark)	Div 4 1st Grade (McLean)	Div 5 1st Grade (Jeffery)	Div 6 1st Grade (Meldrum)	Div 3 2nd Grade (Farrant)	Div 4 2nd Grade (Grose)	Div 3 3rd Grade (Campbell)	Radford
Old Barker	Y				Y			Y
Old Iggies	Y				Y			Y
Harlequins	Y				Y		Y	Y
Epping	Y				Y		Y	Y
Savers	Y				Y
Knox	Y				Y			Y
Redfield	Y				Y
Harbour	Y				Y
Canterbury						Y
Chatswood		Y				Y
HAC							Y
Mac Uni		Y				Y		Y
Merrylands		Y				Y
Northern Saints						Y	Y	Y
Raptors		Y
Dukes							Y
Balmain							Y	Y
Menai		Y
Irish		Y
North Cronulla		Y
Burraneer		Y
Wakehurst						Y
Brothers						Y
Kings OB							Y
Oatley						Y
Lane Cove							Y

In this system, you have all 8 team competitions.
DIVISION 3: Old Barker & Lane Cove; Old Iggies & HAC; Sydney Harlequins; Epping; Manly Savers & Balmain; Knox & Kings OB; Redfield & Northern Saints; Harbour & Dukes.
DIVISION 4: Chatswood; Mac Uni; Burraneer & Wakehurst; North Cronulla & Oatley ; Irish & Brothers; Menai & Canterbury; Raptors & North Saints; Merrylands

Clubs listed together would need to work together to share grounds. For example, Barker have 3 grade and Lane Cove have 1 - Barker would have 5 home games and Lane Cove 2 games. All of that fixture would be played there.

After we fill a 10 team Division 1, could @Prodigy modify this plan for Division 2 down?

 

[Pfitzy]

After we fill a 10 team Division 1, could @Prodigy modify this plan for Division 2 down?

If that were to happen, merged divisions for everyone else. Someone plays as someone else's third grade.

There will be some clubs who simply can't go on in their current fashion. and some will not continue at all. There are others who just can't travel that well at all, or on a given week. Cost of living and work are not something you can fight against with a promise of a few beers and getting injured

 

[Prodigy]

After we fill a 10 team Division 1, could @Prodigy modify this plan for Division 2 down?

Yep, probably can work through something...... but it's just got alot more difficult with an extra division of teams.

 

[Prodigy]

If that were to happen, merged divisions for everyone else. Someone plays as someone else's third grade.

There will be some clubs who simply can't go on in their current fashion. and some will not continue at all. There are others who just can't travel that well at all, or on a given week. Cost of living and work are not something you can fight against with a promise of a few beers and getting injured

Well the current system isn't working and the return of 8x8x8 doesnt work.
In this system, do Mosman stay in Division 1 or drop because of the CC position they finished in?
Do Lindfield go another year in Division 2 and potentially halt their incredible momentum and be denied what they rightfully deserve.

If we return to the very outdated system, then you'd have (based on CC standings):
Division 1: Colleagues, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Blue Mountains, St Patricks, Forest, Lindfield
Division 2: Mosman (fielding at least 3 more grades than most other clubs in the division), Petersham, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Epping, Briars, Beecroft.
Division 3: Hawkesbury Valley, Knox, Sydney Harbour, Sydney Harlequins, Old Barker, Old Ignatians, Sydney Irish (??), Merrylands (??).

Mosman could play Briars and have to find games for 60-70 players. If Newport have the European exodus mid season again, that number jumps.
Subbies needs a rethink on the divisional structure, or it needs to limit the number of clubs in one area to push the numbers together.

We know that the bigger disease in rugby stems from the top, as they say the fish rots from the head. When the game's leaders decide to look at protecting the future of the game, we will be more successful.

 

[Pfitzy]

Mosman could play Briars and have to find games for 60-70 players.

Sounds like a Mosman problem TBH.

Mosman fielding more terms than everyone in their division is no anomaly. 6 grades + 3 Colts being the record in recent years. Over 250 players registered I believe, but can't confirm. At 25 per squad that's 10 team's worth and 12 on a good week.

That isn't affected in any way by the competition structure; they'll continue to do it regardless while the players continue to support it.

I'm not into punishing anyone for their success, but everyone knows the rules and some clubs continue to operate in their current fashion regardless.

 

[Pfitzy]

Subbies needs a rethink on the divisional structure, or it needs to limit the number of clubs in one area to push the numbers together.

Mandating club location is probably only applicable to new entrants. Trying to force Division 1 clubs to move is a bit late at this stage