Sydney Colts - 2015

[Tah and feathered]

I have just heard Penrith 1st colts are now out of the comp and all clubs who have played them will have there win comp points deleted and the for and sgainst ( mostly for) and 1st colts games will now be a bye.
Clubs playing Penrith will have there 2nd colts teams closely monitored so that teams are not stacking there 2nd and 3rd colts teams with 1st colts players to ensure a victory.
I was also told that next year teams who finish top 4 ( could be top 6) are not allowed to recruit players from the clubs outside the top 4 or 6 unless they pay a transfer fee to the club that the player leaves and that players points will be increased and the team points will drop from 40 to 30.
If they do this drop then local players have to be zero points, in my opinion.
I got this from a good source but it is 3rd or 4th hand

 

[The Raging Potato]

Clubs playing Penrith will have there 2nd colts teams closely monitored so that teams are not stacking there 2nd and 3rd colts teams with 1st colts players to ensure a victory.

They don't seem to monitor this with other teams come finals time so not sure why they would monitor this now when results would suggest this to be irrelevant! More sad news for the Riff unfortunately if true.

 

[Garza]

Every club/school is entitled to do their best to field a strong team. That is competition. The point is what serves rugby the game. A competition that is lopsided with blowout wins will doom the competition. Supporters of top teams never see a problem. Rugby should be expanding to the growth areas . Rugby devotees supporting Penrith should be applauded for sticking in there not continually put in the position of being bashed by clubs overloaded with rockstars. That is why most legit team sports have effective rules - salary caps, drafts, realistic point systems. The Shute Shield does not have rules that are effective and reform is the only answer.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

reform is the only answer.

It may well be but you should put up some proposal(s) to get debate moving in the direction you would see the reforms moving.
One difficulty I perceive is that what attracts kids at colts level is often intangible (coaching staff, connection to s15/Wallabies, connection to uni) and its hard to police the intangibles.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

<snip> That is why most legit team sports have effective rules - salary caps, drafts, realistic point systems. <snip>

I think you may be missing the words "fully professional" after "legit" in the statement above.

I don't think Netball, Field Hockey, or Water Polo have salary caps, drafts or player points systems and they seem to be legitimate team sports.

Super Rugby in Australia has a salary cap of sorts (ignoring ground rental and other paper bag issues), yet in SAF and NZ it doesn't. In NZ the NSRU seem to manage things through a form of centralised contracting, and I'm not sure that there is any control in Sefrika.

NRL has salary caps but no draft. Ask Melbourne Storm how that works. There is an integrity department in Loig HQ that employs forensic accountants full time to ensure compliance.
AFL has a draft and salary cap. Ask Carlton Blues and John Elliot how that works. There are continual accusations of Clubs at the bottom of the ladder tanking games in order to improve their draft picks for the following year.
A League diveball apparently has a salary cap, if anyone really cared. Ask the Perth Glory how that works.

When the pro codes with all their millions of dollars, and battalions of full time staff can not prevent rorting of drafts and salary caps how do you propose it would work in an amateur metropolitan competition for an illegitimate team sport?

How do you manage a salary cap when players are not getting paid, and the Competition administrators are volunteers?
In Shute Shield, it is more about assistance with rent, finding a "proper" job, subsidised medical and dental, and sometimes use of a car rather than cash payments.

In Colts, there are scholarships which by and large seem to be more of a contra arrangement rather than cold hard cash. From my knowledge, many of the "scholarships" are worth very little and are little more than a "track suit" scholarship but they are often talked up by the connections and associates of the recipients to be something more than they actually are. There are some lads who are on a "really good deal" but these are very few and far between, and these seem to be spread across the clubs rather than concentrated in the usual suspects of Wicks and Uni. As @inside Shoulder has stated, intangibles are a powerful player recruiting and retention tool. What price do you place on "playing with my mates from school"?

Should Eastwood be "penalised" somehow because Ed Craig was fortunate enough to be awarded a $2500 Volvo Rugby Scholarship to assist with his education expenses - http://www.schoolsrugby.com.au/wp-c...olboy-Rugby-Scholarships-Application-2014.pdf. Same for The Corporation and Hugh Summerhayes?

 

[I like to watch]

The points system is a great concept.
It just needs tweaking to make it work effectively.

 

[couldabeen]

What about the Penrith 1sts Colts? Is it true?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I have just heard Penrith 1st colts are now out of the comp and all clubs who have played them will have there win comp points deleted and the for and sgainst ( mostly for) and 1st colts games will now be a bye.
Clubs playing Penrith will have there 2nd colts teams closely monitored so that teams are not stacking there 2nd and 3rd colts teams with 1st colts players to ensure a victory.
I was also told that next year teams who finish top 4 ( could be top 6) are not allowed to recruit players from the clubs outside the top 4 or 6 unless they pay a transfer fee to the club that the player leaves and that players points will be increased and the team points will drop from 40 to 30.
If they do this drop then local players have to be zero points, in my opinion.
I got this from a good source but it is 3rd or 4th hand

There are some who have posted that the Emus should be allowed to register a Colts 2's, Colts 3's and Under 18's team, and leave a bye in Colts 1's where they would be more competitive than being forced to register Colts 1, 2, and 3 teams, and leave a bye in the Under 18's.

I am intrigued about the proposed player transfer system, and would like to know more detail about how it is intended to work. It seems rather complex and is a possible sledgehammer to crack a peanut. A Colts player generally has a 2 year post school life span.

In their first post school year in the Colts machine, many kids for all sorts of legitimate and mostly intangible reasons decide to play with a club other than the one they may have played at NSW Junior State Champs at U10's to U13's before they disappeared into the Schools "development" system.

In the second year of Colts, there are some, but historically very very few, who change clubs and most seem to do so to get a chance of playing regular Colts 1 rather than being stuck in Colts 2 behind Reggie Rockstar for another year if they were to stay at their former club.

I have posted frequently and at length on the issue of Clubs claiming "development rights" over players from their associated local junior village clubs, and it is a real mixed bag depending on individual circumstances, but by and large Premier Clubs invest 7/5ths of 5/8th of SFA into Junior Village Club players, especially if they attend a CAS, ISA or AAGPS school.

I'd like to see a worked example of how the proposed system of transfers would work.

I'm thinking that the Hobbits could be a little upset that they have lost Lukhan Lealaiauloto-Tui to the Wicks. I saw Lukhan play Colts 3 for the Hobbits last year and for CHS and Combined States in Schoolboy Representative Rugby. I am as surprised as many others may be that he has been selected for Aust U20's as an 18 turning 19 year old, but I wonder how much of his success can be put down to "developmental investment" in him from Southern Districts Rugby Club. While he is of undoubted bulk which must have first made him attractive to the SD Colts department, I can not recall him playing junior village club representative rugby at State Championships. His form last year in Schools rugby and the Colts games I saw him in screamed out that he was a Loig convert and new to rugby, with a lot to learn about the technical side of his game.

NSW RU Scouts saw potential in him and they invested a lot of effort in him over the summer in their U20 programme. Lukhan has paid back that confidence by diligently applying himself to the NSW RU U20 programme and has ended up in getting selected by Adrian Thompson for the Aust U20s. The Hobbits are probably rightly upset that a lad they saw some potential in has crossed the Tarren Point Bridge and been enticed to the Wicks for season 2015, and I could be wrong but I am yet to be convinced that there has been serious or substantial investment in player development undertaken by them.

The existing player points system already penalises clubs for recruiting from other clubs where a player who has played more than 50% of the Colts 1 games (9 games) at a different Premiership Club in 2014 is classified as a 6 point player (the same as a former Australian Schoolboy). Maybe this circumstance could be bumped up to 8 points but no more. A player holding a current Super Rugby contract is worth 10 points, and it seems overkill for someone who was a regular Colts 1 starter in their first year out of school to be classified the same as a Professional player in their second year out of school just because they changed club.

"Local players" is a real can of worms. I can imagine that people from Gordon will still be claiming "development" rights over Andrew Kellaway in 2020 which could be his 7th year with the Wicks, and the equivalent of playing U10-U16 incl with the Highlanders at NSW JRU State Champs. Is Dave Dennis a "Local Player" for Penrith Emus or The Corporation? Jed Holloway came to the big smoke in Year 11 (IIRC) from Yamba, and played for Waverley College and moonlighted for the Randwick Warriors Junior Village Club, but he has played all his senior footy for the Hobbits. At what stage does he become a Local from The Shire with no links to Coogee Oval or The Country Cockatoos?

 

[I like to watch]

There will always be anomalies.
The concept of local juniors is a bit of a red herring.
The only issue, is that concentration of Schoolboy rockstars in one or two clubs needs to cease.
For all the talk about good programs etc etc.
The undeniable truth is the best recruiting club has won the colts for more than a decade.
Even out the recruiting,even out the comp.
Then we will see how good these programs are.

 

[couldabeen]

There will always be anomalies.
The concept of local juniors is a bit of a red herring.
The only issue, is that concentration of Schoolboy rockstars in one or two clubs needs to cease.
For all the talk about good programs etc etc.
The undeniable truth is the best recruiting club has won the colts for more than a decade.
Even out the recruiting,even out the comp.
Then we will see how good these programs are.

It really has been that simple but wait until the Corp play Southern this weekend, then Northern Suburbs and Randwick. My only wish is that Pirates and 2 Blues could get in on the act. It all makes for great Rugby when they get on the paddock.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hey sorry to jump a bit off topic here, but I was just looking all over the net but wasn't able to find any records of past colt championships in 1s, 2s and 3s aside from last year. Would anyone happen to know if there are records of this out there, or have any knowledge of the topic..

Cheers.

http://www.rugbynews.net.au/past-premiers/colts-premiers-1970-to-current/
http://www.rugbynews.net.au/past-premiers/colts-premiers-1970-to-current/

Colts Premiers from 1970 onwards.

The Rugby News web site (http://www.rugbynews.net.au/) has undergone a facelift and the link quoted above with all the Shute Shield past history has disappeared.

Anyone know where a copy can be obtained from?

I foolishly thought that the NSW RU or SRU (no website) may have an online copy.

After being threatened with being tossed out of Shute Shield in the 1990's, The Corporation reinvented itself and had a resurgence based around aggressive recruiting and retaining talented players in Colts since the late 1990's.

This is where the referenced history of premierships would have been rather useful, but who was doing all the recruiting of Schoolboy talent prior to that, and has there been a link between a club securing schoolboy representative rock stars, and said club winning Colts premierships.

In the 80's and 90's, which clubs did the Schoolboy Rockstars go to, and was there a concentration or general dispersal of talent?

Wikipedia Shute Shield page (assuming a flow of talent from Colts to Shute Shield) suggests that Wicks, Gordon, Beasties, Mighty 2 Blues, & Rats have all enjoyed periods of success/dominance in Shute Shield that may have had roots in Colts dominance at those clubs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shute_Shield

 

[I like to watch]

It really has been that simple but wait until the Corp play Southern this weekend, then Northern Suburbs and Randwick. My only wish is that Pirates and 2 Blues could get in on the act. It all makes for great Rugby when they get on the paddock.

I would say the top two recruiting clubs this year are Gordon and Randwick.
We are actually seeing how good the Uni program is this year.
Let's see if it's enough.....

 

[GTPIH]

At what stage does he become a Local from The Shire with no links to Coogee Oval or The Country Cockatoos?[/quote]


Everyone knows you have to be born in the Shire to be a true local. Everyone else is just an outsider.

 

[Tah and feathered]

There are some who have posted that the Emus should be allowed to register a Colts 2's, Colts 3's and Under 18's team, and leave a bye in Colts 1's where they would be more competitive than being forced to register Colts 1, 2, and 3 teams, and leave a bye in the Under 18's.

I am intrigued about the player transfer system, and would like to know more detail about how it is intended to work. It seems rather complex and is a possible sledgehammer to crack a peanut. A Colts player generally has a 2 year post school life span.

In their first post school year in the Colts machine, many kids for all sorts of legitimate and mostly intangible reasons decide to play with a club other than the one they may have played at NSW Junior State Champs at U10's to U13's before they disappeared into the Schools "development" system.

In the second year of Colts, there are some, but historically very very few, who change clubs and most seem to do so to get a chance of playing regular Colts 1 rather than being stuck in Colts 2 behind Reggie Rockstar for another year if they were to stay at their former club.

I have posted frequently and at length on the issue of Clubs claiming "development rights" over players from their associated local junior village clubs, and it is a real mixed bag depending on individual circumstances, but by and large Premier Clubs invest 7/5ths of 5/8th of SFA into junior Village Club players, especially if they attend a CAS, ISA or AAGOS school.

I'd like to see a worked example of how the proposed system of transfers would work.

I'm thinking that the Hobbits could be a little upset that they have lost Lukhan Lealaiauloto-Tui to the Wicks. I saw Lukhan play Colts 3 for the Hobbits last year and for CHS and Combined States in Schoolboy Representative Rugby. I am as surprised as many others may be that he has been selected for Aust U20's as an 18 turning 19 year old, but I wonder how much of his success can be put down to "developmental investment" in him from Southern Districts Rugby Club. While he is of undoubted bulk which must have first made him attractive to the SD Colts department, I can not recall him playing junior village club representative rugby at State Championships. His form last year in Schools rugby and the Colts games I saw him in screamed out that he was a Loig convert and new to rugby, with a lot to learn about the technical side of his game.

NSW RU Scouts saw potential in him and they invested a lot of effort in him over the summer in their U20 programme. Lukhan has paid back that confidence by diligently applying himself to the NSW RU U20 programme and has ended up in getting selected by Adrian Thompson for the Aust U20s. The Hobbits are probably rightly upset that a lad they saw some potential in has crossed the Tarren Point Bridge and been enticed to the Wicks for season 2015, and I could be wrong but I am yet to be convinced that there has been serious or substantial investment in player development undertaken by them.

The existing player points system already penalises clubs for recruiting from other clubs where a player who has played more than 50% of the Colts 1 games (9 games) at a different Premiership Club in 2014 is classified as a 6 point player (the same as a former Australian Schoolboy). Maybe this circumstance could be bumped up to 8 points but no more. A player holding a current Super Rugby contract is worth 10 points, and it seems overkill for someone who was a regular Colts 1 starter in their first year out of school to be classified the same as a Professional player in their second year out of school just because they changed club.

"Local players" is a real can of worms. I can imagine that people from Gordon will still be claiming "development" rights over Andrew Kellaway in 2020 which could be his 7th year with the Wicks, and the equivalent of playing U10-U16 incl with the Highlanders at NSW JRU State Champs. Is Dave Dennis a "Local Player" for Penrith Emus or The Corporation? Jed Holloway came to the big smoke in Year 11 (IIRC) from Yamba, and played for Waverley College and moonlighted for the Randwick Warriors Junior Village Club, but he has played all his senior footy for the Hobbits. At what stage does he become a Local from The Shire with no links to Coogee Oval or The Country Cockatoos?

I have been told what Souths did for Lukhan and they went above and beyond to help him.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My information is that Uni have toned down their recruitment: they are no longer assuming the desirability or acceptability of the schoolboy rockstars and are assessing the players they want to attract individually and irrespective of how far they go in school rep footy.
That's real recruitment and I have a feeling similar approaches are being taken at other clubs.

 

[Rugby Addict]

I hear the Corporation have already signed current school students for next year so IS is on the money.

If Penrith drop out of Colts 1 they will need to award the opposition 5 points and a 28 - 0 for and against as some teams play them twice.

 

[Gibbo]

Not to mention the fines for not contesting a grade. I think at last check it was at or above $250 a round.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I thought there were summaries done previously on the Schoolboys thread for Cohorts prior to 2012 but I can't find them. Might have to run G&GR Archives through the Jarse-o-meter to get the figures over the next couple of days. I recall a post somewhere going back a couple of years where The Corporation seemed to land about 3 former Aust Schoolboys each year with other clubs recruiting as well or better then them on a regular basis.

Here are some recent numbers on recruiting to save you scouring the Gaggerland archives.

Class of 2012:
Where the 59 NSW I, NSW II and Combined States players from NSW are in 2013.
School - 15
Sydney University - 9
Manly - 8
Northern Suburbs - 7
Southern Districts - 5
Randwick - 4
Eastern Suburbs - 3
Gordon - 1
Eastwood - 1
Brisbane - 1
Loig - 2
TBC - 3

Where the 26 2012 Aust Schoolboy/Schoolboy A Reps from NSW are in 2013.
School - 6
Sydney University - 5
Manly - 4
Northern Suburbs - 3
Southern Districts - 2
Randwick - 2
Eastern Suburbs - 1
Gordon - 1
Brisbane - 1
Loig - 1

Class of 2013:
Where the 56 NSW I, NSW II and Combined States players from NSW are in 2014.
Eastern Suburbs, 1
Forbes, (NSW Country)1
NZ, 1
Parramatta, 1
Tonga, 1
Wanderers (NSW Country) 1
West Harbour, 1
Gordon, 2
Manly, 2
Warringah, 2
Southden Districts, 3
Sydney University, 4
Eastwood, 4
Loig, 6
Northern Suburbs, 6
Randwick, 8
School, 10
TBC, 2

Where the 23 2013 Aust Schoolboy/Schoolboy A Reps from NSW are in 2014.
Eastern Suburbs, 1 (in 2014 when still at School then Loig in 2015)
Northern Suburbs, 1
NZ, 1
Southern Districts, 1
West Harbour, 1
tbc, 1
Eastwood, 2
Loig, 2
Sydney University, 2
Warringah, 2
School, 3 (2 to Randwick in 2015, 1 to Gordon in 2015)
Randwick, 6

Class of 2014:
Where the 64 NSW I, NSW II and Combined States players from NSW are in 2014.
Gordon: 9
Randwick: 9
Sydney University: 8
Northern Suburbs: 5
Eastwood: 1
Eastern Suburbs:1
Manly: 1
Parramatta: 1
Loig: 2
School: 15
TBC: 9

Where the 14 Aust Schoolboy Reps from NSW are in 2015.
School 3
Sydney University 3
Randwick 2
Parramatta 1
Northern Suburbs 1
Eastwood 1
Eastern Suburbs 1
Loig 1
TBC 1

Edit: Found the figures for the Class of 2012 dispositions in 2013 Colts and added above.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I hear the Corporation have already signed current school students for next year so IS is on the money.
<snip>

There are usually a few lads "signed" or otherwise from the current Year 12's at big and not so big Rugby schools that moonlight in various Colts teams while they are still at school.

Over the years I have been at various Rugby functions where the Top Table will be entertaining a lad or two dressed in School No 1's along with their parents. Usually this young fellow is a handsome and strapping specimen from "out of zone" who magically turns up in their Colts programme the following year.

Nothing new, and any club not already looking seriously at the Class of 2015 (there are 15 players from 2014 National Schoolboy Championships who are still at School this year) is probably going to be sucking off the hind teat recruiting wise when the Class of 2015 finish school. Information nights, and Pre-season training starts for some clubs in October/November, not long after HSC and Schoolies.

This kicked off the Where are the Class of 2014 going to in 2015 thread:
A number of the NSW Schoolboy rep players are already in the Colts Machine playing either a full season, or a moonlighting role when there was no school footy on. While some may change, it is fairly likely that the following 2014 Colts Schoolboy players would be registering with the same club in 2015:
Eastern Suburbs: Crichton (GPS, NSW, Aust), Adcock (ISA)
Eastwood: Craig (CHS, NSW, Aust)
Gordon: Wilkinson (CCC, CS)
Northern Suburbs: Finley (CHS, NSW)
Parramatta: Vatuvei (CHS, NSW, Aust)
Randwick: Digby (AAGPS), Fifita (AAGPS. NSW, Aust) - Announced in 2013 on Wicks web site, Rudolf (AAGPS, NSW), Serhon (AAGPS, NSW)
Southern Districts: Lealaiauloco-Tui (CHS, CS)
Sydney University: Masima (ISA, CS), Moore (ISA, NSW)
West Harbour: Vaitaiki (CHS)

Fairly accurate prediction noting that:
Crichton jumped ship to the Bunnies Loig U20s.
Haven't seen Digby on Wicks Team lists yet.
Haven't seen Rudolf on Wicks Team sheets yet but he is believed to be with Team Rehab from the U20 programme, and snouts have confirmed that he is a Galloper.
Parramatta haven't published any team lists on Rugby Link yet, but my snouts have confirmed that Vatuvei is with them this year.
Lealaiauloco-Tui has crossed the Tarren Point Bridge to play with the Wicks in 2015.

No Surprises:
Craig played all his junior club footy for Eastwood Village Clubs.
Serhon played all his junior club footy for Randwick Village Clubs before being lost to the AAGPS system at Newington.
Rudolf played all his junior club footy for Randwick Village Clubs before being lost to the AAGPS system at Scots in Yr 11.

 

[stonecutter]

Vale Penrith Colts 1st XV if the posts are correct.The obvious issue at hand is the unevenness of talent distribution among the various teams. I'd suggest a cap on how many points a club can recruit in a year based on previous years success and similar to a draft. Taking Randwick as an example, having won last years competition, they might be allocated 30 points where as the team that ran second is allocated 40 points and so on down the line.

Players are then rated accordingly to playing status that year, ie;

• Australian schoolboy = 15 points
• State rep = 10 points
• Association rep 1st XV = 7 points
• Association rep 2nd XV = 5 points

All other players are not part of the process and there is no points cap in regard to the Colts competition. The only issue at hand is about distributing the talent on show. If you are good enough to make the big show as a schoolboy then consequently you might possibly play your senior rugby at a club different to where you played juniors. This hasn't appeared to be an issue with an overwhelming majority of players in the past few years of recruitment (see previous G & G posts on player development). If a club has a kid from the local high school playing league and switches to rugby then good luck to them. Penalties of an added 5 points would apply to players switching clubs in Colts and 15 points if enticed to grade but once a player is no longer age eligible to play Colts then a reset would take place under the rules that govern the Grade competition points.

Quite simply there are clubs who don't possess the contacts or financial clout to attract some of these players and the imbeciles that run the game need to acknowledge that help is required. You can't copy what the powerful clubs have if you don't have what they do to start with (note socio-economic circumstances of leading recruitment clubs). With the ARU and likely the NSWRU being close to insolvency this would stop large groups going to single clubs in one group without a dollar from the governing bodies other than to ensure a transparent register is kept of who is playing for who. To those who will argue about playing with mates or obstruction of the right to play where you want, bad luck. Most of these kids have been seeking professional opportunities since they were ensconced in the Koala club as 15 year olds and their worth on the open market is something they will need to get used to if they intend to play professionally as will not having a say in which club you play at (usually the one who offers most). It will also force clubs to truly look at what they require instead of the blanket approach that certain clubs have used and is evident with credentialed players running around in Colts 2's. Will clubs continue to lean heavily on the opinion of a couple of schoolboy selectors or will they send in their own people to identify underlying talent that is often overlooked. Is it more prudent to recruit a number of ISA, GPS or CHS reps who miss State selection or do you put your eggs in one basket and go after a couple of National schools players.

Clubs must also nominate whether the player is playing Grade or Colts and adjustments are made to the points cap if the circumstances change. This will also help to stop clubs from pre-signing players as they won't know their value until the end of their final school year.

Randwick, Manly, Souths and Uni should be applauded for finding a way to the top of the pile, however, it shouldn't be allowed to continue unabated if it puts the competitions credibility at genuine risk through lopsided scores and only 1 or 2 clubs vying for the title. It also puts to rest the notion that a club has rights to players through junior affiliation as the players themselves don't hold this notion highly as evidenced by the number of them playing elsewhere currently.

*Numbers used in this suggestion are purely that of the authors thinking and are open to fruitful discussion and calibration.